Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
Before the camps, I regarded the existence of nationality as something that shouldn’t be noticed - nationality did not really exist, only humanity. But in the camps one learns: if you belong to a successful nation you are protected and you survive. If you are part of universal humanity - too bad for you -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Its not only different on a few details here and there, its different in just about every way. For example, when the women and children tried to flee, they were shot down, not by the police, but by Koresh and his main supporters. What's more, the fire was either caused by the accidental ignition of tear gas or purposefully set by those aside, ie the fire was not the main line of attack. Stop trying to establish strawmen.
Hamas runs on the "liberty or death" concept. They point to Israel as oppressors of the people and of freedom. Its a twisted mentality that Hamas took advantage of in order to strengthen its position. The people don't believe their lives are cheap so much, they merely believe that its worthwhile to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs and for their families. Wasn't the US built on the concept of a marginalized group of people fighting for their freedom against a superior military force?Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?
You really, really haven't been paying attention to the world, have you?If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.
The greater part (again, stop doing selective reading as I never said all in an absolute sense) of responsibility lays on Israel, because first of all they started the conflict, and second of all because they are in a greater position of power. Hamas did not come out of a void, but was brought about because of Israel's actions against the Palestinians, as anyone capable of reading a timeline can figure out.Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
The last I saw, and I could be wrong, but with the most recent attacks in Gaza conditions were as such: Israel: stop all military resistance and we'll stop firing at you. Hamas: lift the blockade which is viewed by the entire international community (except the US) as a crime against humanity, because you are hurting civilians through your military tactics.The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?
Apparently Hamas thinks they have a ceasefire deal with Israel, but Israel doesn't think so yet. Hmmm...
'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
Or a yawing hole in a battered head
And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
And there they lay I damn me eyes
All lookouts clapped on Paradise
All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!
It really is an ugly and sad situation dating all the way back to WWII. If the holocaust had not happened then Israel probably would not have happened. Its just an ongoing circle of hate with no end in sight. All it takes is one wacko or zealot on either side to start things all over again whenever they finally start making headway. Personally I don't see any sort of permanent peace ever being possible unless an unbiased third party comes in and imposes reconciliation and integration.
Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot.
Who had nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor.
Who had almost stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol.
And who had personally wet himself, at the Battle of Badon Hill.
The blockade was deemed legal under international law by an international UN inquiry committee.
What started this round of escalation was a group of Popular Resistance Committee members who opened fire on an Israeli patrol.
And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
It is political "suicide" to launch a large ground operation so close to the election, Hamas know it Israel know it, but it sound better if you can spin it so it look like Israel show restraint.
Sill convinced that Netanyahu did all this escalation to make him "look good" on the domestic plane, because the upcoming election.
What inquiry? source?
We can always play the blame game to the second amoeba did do something nasty to the first amoeba. But Irgun did do loots of nasty stuff before that.And how exactly did Israel start the conflict? By being attacked by 5 different Arab countries along with the local Arab population on the day of its founding?
People need to stop repeating this myth. Hate Israel all you want, but hate them for the right reasons. Gaza and the West Bank are both independent, non-state political entities, governed by Hamas and the Palestinian National Authority, respectively. The people there are subject to the laws of their respective governments and therefore not under any sort of Apartheid.
Israel itself is a completely integrated society where Arab citizens enjoy all the rights accorded to any other Israeli.
When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!
Palmer report. For the full report, see here.
Specifically,
The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law
---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:44 PM ----------
Right, I forgot the national passtime here is shooting random boys for no reason whatsoever.
Last edited by Liara; 2012-11-20 at 06:50 PM.
Not going to argue the details with you, if you've looked into the situation at all you'd know that what happened inside the compound is still not at all clear. The bottom line is that the ATF/FBI task force sent tanks with tear gas and automatic weapons support into a civilian area to force the issue instead of slowly and peacefully resolving the situation - which is what President Clinton initially wanted to do until the Attorney General convinced him otherwise. You asked if people would freak out if the US killed 50 people to take out one man. Sorry if you don't like the answer.
I laughed when I read this. Hamas doesn't run on the "liberty or death" concept. Hamas is a terrorist organization who for years killed Israeli civilians indiscriminately and gained legitimacy when the Palestinians decided that they were the best way to fight Israel. How's that working out for them, by the way?
As to the American Revolution, one of the major differences is that the colonies actually had a chance of winning because Britain wasn't willing to commit enough of their forces to subdue their fellow Englishmen. Also I admit that my history classes were a bit biased, but I'm fairly sure that the colonies never sent saboteurs into Britain with the purpose of blowing up Parliament, or targets with even less strategic value. But yeah, other than that I guess Hamas and the 13 colonies operated exactly along the same lines.
Oh, is that why a multinational coalition was formed to stop Russia from absolutely kicking the shit out of Chechnya? Or when China crushed Tibet? I must have missed all of that. Unless it's in Europe's backyard(Serbia) or a complete wreck of a nation(Rwanda), or someone decides to royally piss off the US(Iraq, Afghanistan), the UN usually doesn't get involved beyond a slap on the wrist and a sternly worded letter(Iraq again). By all means provide actual examples if you disagree.
You're right, you didn't specifically say that Israel deserves all the blame for the situation. You just have heavily implied it in every single post you've made in this thread, with no real critique of Hamas to balance it out. My bad for saying clearly what you were saying obliquely, I guess?
South Africa Apartheid did have the same type of concept, they did call it "Homlands" it was independent, non-state political entities, governed by blacks, but was constant overruled and controlled by the central (white) government.
Israeli citizens of arabic origin are not oppressed and enjoy the rights and privilege as appropriate to a citizen of a democratic state, BUT the problem is all the people who is denied citizenship (no law of return for them) and the government of Israel is using all the trick in the book to force them into a limbo.
---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 07:55 PM ----------
No weapons that can I understand, but all the rest of the goods what is blockade? did UN clear that to?
Last edited by mmoc957ac7b970; 2012-11-20 at 06:57 PM.
That's hilarious! Israel has blockaded in recent years such "weapons" as: pasta, tomato paste, juice, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies, candy, A4 paper, crayons, soccer balls, musical instruments, toilet paper, candles and wheelchairs.
Does that sounds like a list designed to "prevent weapons from entering Gaza"? Because to me that sounds awfully lot like collective punishment and a deliberate attempt to stop a nation from developing itself into a modern society.
That says a lot more about the "UN appointed committee" than anything else.
Yeah, they don't enter by sea because Israel is blockading the sea. When people try to import humanitarian goods by sea, IDF stops them and shoots them. Do you even think before writing?Mostly because humanitarian goods don't enter by sea.
Certainly you must be aware of such well known facts since you're so passionately debating the topic?Also, have you got a source for your claim?
tell it to the people that were killed or injured in international waters by IDF pirates. turkey your ally was less than impressed if i remember.