Blizzard Covering Up botting issue?

[Endus]

Excellent posts Endus, sadly however driving those home to the people that need to be made aware of the situation at large would prove to be difficult. It doesn't help matters much that the frustration to botting in the game doesn't do much to help the overall dilemma, and it's certainly something I can sympathisise with when I see games being won or lost based on how many bots there are and on which side and what quality the bots they had installed are, heh.

A couple of months ago I was doing a WSG with 9 bots on my team. I absolutely kid you not. Horde had a couple that I know about. Draw. Fun times.

Yeah, I know it's frustrating, and I know it's gotten worse recently. I'm just trying to get across that botting isn't a situation that can ever be fixed. Their current system was working fine for years. If something's changed in the community (and it may have), Blizzard may need to adapt their procedures.

That doesn't mean they're doing nothing or don't care. Changing a system that directly affects paying subscribers, though, is going to be the kind of thing that needs to go up the chain and get approved, and they're going to be relatively cautious; it's not like one guy can just go "screw it, ban all the botters first thing". The guys taking in this information almost certainly don't have the authority to make that call.

[cFortyfive]

Bots can include random variation. It's not difficult. Heck, my mouse software lets me do the same. They don't want to catch the people using the bot, they want to catch the bot program. Not the same thing.

Perma banning someone for botting in WoW would be like if we here at MMO-Champ permabanned anyone we deemed to be trolling. We have a similar ramp-up system with point decay.

Again the most common versions are publicly available. People can tell me all they want but when fishing bots are standing around 24/7 since about like three weeks with a freely available bot and nothing happens it has little to do with the need to figure out the way the program works. And sorry but that comparison seems hilarious at best - perma banning bots makes it fiscally less attractive which is about the only way to even remotely combat the whole situation as you can't just create a new account with a throwaway email for free and of course it is way cheaper than hiring more people to monitor bot activities.

[Endus]

Again the most common versions are publicly available. People can tell me all they want but when fishing bots are standing around 24/7 since about like three weeks with a freely available bot and nothing happens it has little to do with the need to figure out the way the program works.

No, it has to do with waiting until most people are using it.

The goal is not to ban them as soon as you can, it's to wait until you have a whole bunch of people confirmed and "caught", and then issuing the bans all at once, so they don't REALIZE they've been caught. Three weeks is a VERY short window. They wait longer than that. Every time they do a ban wave, the hacks will get updated, so it's a question of whether they catch more hackers banning more often, or if they wait for them to all fall for the detected hack they haven't revealed they know about. It's baiting a hook.

And sorry but that comparison seems hilarious at best - perma banning bots makes it fiscally less attractive which is about the only way to even remotely combat the whole situation as you can't just create a new account with a throwaway email for free and of course it is way cheaper than hiring more people to monitor bot activities.

It's only not fiscally attractive if you assume the botter will quit as a result of the ban. They don't go to permanent bans for first offenses for the same reason they won't ban for a first offense for pretty much anything; because they want people to reform and become good customers. If you just permaban, that's not a possibility.

[cFortyfive]

It's only not fiscally attractive if you assume the botter will quit as a result of the ban. They don't go to permanent bans for first offenses for the same reason they won't ban for a first offense for pretty much anything; because they want people to reform and become good customers. If you just permaban, that's not a possibility.

Which results in the situation we have right now. Easy as that.
Apart from likely 9/10 users not being banned for using it in the first place anyways.

[Hanto]

If you ran a forum site, which would you prefer?

A. One or two threads constructively discussing an issue

or....

B. Ten threads full of whiny kids complaining about the same issue, claiming the forum host is doing nothing to solve the issue despite repeated responses from the host saying they're doing the best they can

I'm completely okay with them deleting those threads (whether US or EU) since they're probably following the trend option B is describing.

[cFortyfive]

If you ran a forum site, which would you prefer?

Neither as both is bad publicity constructive or not. Although on second thought actually pretending to care doesn't really hurt I guess.

[Exorte]

So here I was sitting on the Eu forums in the Battleground section browsing Bot complaints threads. Suddenly as I refresh the page I start seeing locked threads. Then deleted threads. I have read atleast half of those threads and seen nothing lock worthy in either. I get the slight sensation that Blizzard is getting rid of the "sensitive" threads make the problem seem smaller somehow...

Like if we ignore enough people the complaints will just go away.

Pretty sure a blue said they know bots in BG got worse since MoP launch, in other word they are not covering it up.
Probably repost or something.

[Karlz0rz]

One thing I'd like to see is an enforced use of the authenticator. And if people would whine about not wanting to spend money on it, make it a part of the "retail" package. That way, when Blizzard says "A lot of those accounts are hacked", that part just goes away and they can ban at will!
It's their game, so if they chose to make us use authenticators, then we'd just have to adapt.
Any thoughts?

[wvx]

If you have a bot issue, report it through the correct means. Creating endless threads about it doesn't help it at all and most of the time they don't provide any relevant info about the botting, but just random complaints that won't help in any way dealing with it..........

Lol , just LOL . They have been ignoring boots for 3-4 years now . The only ones they ban are the accounts they find out that are selling gold , the others they just ignore . I used to see the same boot in Sholazar Basin for over a year (before Cata came out) and nothing happened to him , although it was reported a lot of times . I also know a guildie that used to have a boot farm maths 24/7 , he didn't get banned also .
Boot bans are a myth .

[Deleted]

Its kind of colliding.

I really hate to see so many threads being about bots. There should only be ONE big thread about bots.

But in the other hand Blizzard are terrible and never listen to their costumers (cough low pop servers cough) and sadly only overspammed threads get their attention.

They are forced to do so cause when people new to this game sees it youll know what happens.

Blizzard are cowards too especially in the EU forums. If Blizzard wants to ignore EU then merge the forums. Why should we EUs discuss about things and be ignored, thats not the way to treath costumers. Blizzard are just moneyhungry, same with Gameloft that used to care a bit before. Just see what happened to DH3..

The reason i play WoW time to time is because of friends. Seriously thats it. Until my sub runs out. Im sick and tired of my dead server and im sick and tired of pvp cause my spec i want to pvp with is useless. Well im not 90 yet but close.

[Deleted]

Changes are made to Warden after the manual ban pass is done. Those changes are to automate action against anyone using the old system. It's a secondary system, and it's not meant to catch the brand-new programs, unless the designer is stupid enough to replicate something already in the database.

Blizzard isn't running a check once a year to detect bots. That's just false.

The last part at least is true, they're not running a check at all when it comes to the EU servers.

If I'd bothered to level all the way to 90 on my druid through farming, I'd have done the same. I got annoyed by the lack of flying around level 82, so I quested the rest of it, but my farmer doesn't in any way need gear. What you're describing has to do with farming alts, not bots. They might BE bots, but the evidence you're citing isn't evidence of that.

No, these are bots. They're not farming alts, they're bots. You can come here take a look at them, maybe add some to your friends list. These bots are there 24/7 farming all day. Same for said Paladin who's running dungeons all day, the same one over and over again. Simply watching them for a time, trying to write some of them and see if they respond.
It's plain as day and obvious that these are not in fact real players. Your claim that obviously those are farming alts is an insult to anyone actually having something resembling a brain.
Perma bans aren't that common, and botting as a first or even second offense typically wouldn't be enough to qualify your account for that. So really, what you just described is that you've seen botters getting banned properly.

Perma banning someone for botting in WoW would be like if we here at MMO-Champ permabanned anyone we deemed to be trolling. We have a similar ramp-up system with point decay.[/QUOTE]
Trolling and botting are two completly different issues. Bots absolutely NEED to be banned permanently. The player used ones are bad, the professional ones are worse. You're very obviously playing on the US realms as you have no idea whatsoever what is going on on the EU realms. The issue has become unbearable long since ago.
Anything less of an perma ban wont discourage the professional botters and wont to much against the player bots. The gain far outweights the loss if they eventually get temporarely banned. The decay of time they get banned is even worse, because the time between alleged bot ban waves is so long that by the second one everyone get's off with an slap on the wrist again.

Excellent posts Endus, sadly however driving those home to the people that need to be made aware of the situation at large would prove to be difficult. It doesn't help matters much that the frustration to botting in the game doesn't do much to help the overall dilemma, and it's certainly something I can sympathisise with when I see games being won or lost based on how many bots there are and on which side and what quality the bots they had installed are, heh.

A couple of months ago I was doing a WSG with 9 bots on my team. I absolutely kid you not. Horde had a couple that I know about. Draw. Fun times.

His points are bad and so is his logic. Anything less then a permanent ban isn't going to stop anyone from botting, ban waves every few years at best aren't doing anything to discourage them either. Botting is one of the most severe issues on my realms even if a great many people don't actually notice it, it has an big negative impact on their gaming.
Battleground bots are one of the most frustrating parts but by far not the only one and many people wont actually recognize them. Thus they don't relate their losing streak over an entire days to the real cause of it and the fact that in many games from the very beginning they didn't stand a chance.

Also bots have an big negative influence on the economy. People farming legitimately are harmed by this quite severely. Bots are flooding the auction house with an endless stream of materials they sell beneath their worth hindering those people who actually farm themselves twice in the process.

Lol , just LOL . They have been ignoring boots for 3-4 years now . The only ones they ban are the accounts they find out that are selling gold , the others they just ignore . I used to see the same boot in Sholazar Basin for over a year (before Cata came out) and nothing happened to him , although it was reported a lot of times . I also know a guildie that used to have a boot farm maths 24/7 , he didn't get banned also .
Boot bans are a myth .

A guy from my guild is also running a bot on his second account. At first just to make some gold on the side. By now he bots on his main account aswell since from the beginning of Wotlk his second account never got banned even once and even IF he were to be banned it would be an few hour ban at best that would have expired by the time they might caught him again.

[Gohzerlock]

I reported the same herb botting people in uldum for about a week straight and nothing was done... so I gave up.

[Endus]

Trolling and botting are two completly different issues. Bots absolutely NEED to be banned permanently.

You're just overreacting. Permabanning for a first offense isn't a reasonable way to go about things unless they're really egregious, and a single account botting isn't egregious. Nor can you blame individual accounts for something a lot of other people are doing and thus increase the punishment simply because the issue is widespread.

Anything less then a permanent ban isn't going to stop anyone from botting, ban waves every few years at best aren't doing anything to discourage them either.

The ban waves happen much more often than "every few years". More like "every few months". The issue is that many of them escape detection because they aren't reported, and they change programs once Warden is updated.

A guy from my guild is also running a bot on his second account. At first just to make some gold on the side. By now he bots on his main account aswell since from the beginning of Wotlk his second account never got banned even once and even IF he were to be banned it would be an few hour ban at best that would have expired by the time they might caught him again.

So you didn't report this guy, why? You're complaining about bots, he's running one. If you haven't been filing regular reports against him, you're contributing to the problem you're complaining about.

Again; bots aren't easy to catch. There are ways to slightly randomize things. If someone is watching the account, they can respond and take over when a GM makes contact. Other hacks, like the one that lets you "fly" in pandaria without being level 90, are much easier to detect. Someone following a consistent path does not mean they're a bot. It might suggest it, but it doesn't prove it, and Blizzard can't take action against their account without reasonable proof.

They do issue bans. Hell, I've been banned. It was overturned because I wasn't actually botting, but my activity was apparently suspicious enough to trigger action.

People have the wrong time frame. They aren't going to ban a botter later that week when they see the ticket. They're going to add it to the list, and issue all those bans at the same time in a month or three. They WANT botters to think they're safe, so they can catch more of them.

And the change in the EU servers is relatively recent. Again; they may need to update their policy to account for the change, but that doesn't mean they don't have a policy or aren't taking action, it simply means the cheaters have stepped up their activity and Blizzard hasn't formulated a response yet. Because, again, banning paying customers is something they want to be VERY sure they're in the right about. Changing the policy around that isn't a simple procedure and almost certainly requires upper management to sign off on the proposal.

[Lumocolor]

WoW stopped being fun for me a long time ago and i haven't played the game in almost 2 yearsnow, that being said i think they just want to keep the complaints all in 1 thread instead of having 75 threads complaining about the same thing. I'm sure the mods here would lock a bunch of threads if there were 50 talking about the same subject.

[Mihalik]

Sip.

Endus, please asnwer me this honestly. Are you playing on EU servers?

If you do, you dont find BG boting for exemple completly game breaking for the real players? Once or twice, one or two bots you let it slip. But once the problem becomes so massive and agrevating you still defend being lenient to boters?

I have reported Bots. Bots that I know that are bots because I have talked to those running them. NOTHING HAPPENED. No investigations, no GM wispers, no bans or warnings. But this is all anecdotal. The facts are out there glaring you in the face. Screenshots with entire BGs made up 90% of bots, Russian hackers left and right. Forums and websites dedicated to boting and scripting with more activity on them then on most theorycrafter sites.

One other thing.

I DON'T NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM! I DON'T NEED TO CARE OF HOW BLIZZARD FIXES THE PROBLEM WITH THEIR PRODUCT THAT I PAY TO USE! IT IS THEIR OBLIGATION TO FIX IT, TO KEEP ME INFORMED OF WHEN MY FIX IS COMING AND IT HAS TO BE IN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME!!!!!!

I'll give you a comparision.

Suddenly you notice there is a problem with your power. Sometimes the lights go out for no specific reason. After you check that everything is alright on your side, switches, installations etc. you call the power company and inform them of the problem. The company replies that they are looking into it, but the problem persists for days, weeks etc. You end up investigating the issue yourself and you discover your neighbour is illegally stealing your power with a makeshift installation. You inform the power company, who again reply, we are looking into it. The problem persists again on and on. You start spamming the power company with calls demanding a solution. The company tells you, yeah we are looking into it, but the problem is we need to catch the guy who does these makeshift installations so the problem wont repeat itself, just disconnecting your neighbour wont fix the problem on the long run. You say, alright fuxk it, I'll hang on for a while longer the guys are on it. Then weeks pass with no further communication, no solution and ZERO additional information while the company completly ignores your calls or mails.

How would you feel? I would fuxking sue the crap out of the power company.

Now I know this is just a video game. But none the less the same principles apply. I am paying a subscription for a product that is not working. When I pay for this game, that money includes whatever server upkeep, maintenance and enforcement of rules costs. I don't need to know how they fix it, what It costs them and I most certainly have ZERO reason to be any way sympathetic to their plight of how difficult it is to do. IT'S THEIR JOB TO DEAL WITH IT!!!

[Deleted]

You're just overreacting. Permabanning for a first offense isn't a reasonable way to go about things unless they're really egregious, and a single account botting isn't egregious. Nor can you blame individual accounts for something a lot of other people are doing and thus increase the punishment simply because the issue is widespread.

Your logic is flawed. It shouldn't be banned because many people are doing it isn't an good argument, since many people are doing it because Blizzard has been to reluctant to ban the botters so people felt there is no danger in doing so. Botting no matter the circumstances should lead to an permanent and immediate ban or at the very least the infractions should not be subjugated to decay so these people get an permanent ban at the second botting offense at the very least.

The ban waves happen much more often than "every few years". More like "every few months". The issue is that many of them escape detection because they aren't reported, and they change programs once Warden is updated.

The bot I was talking about has been reported. In fact he gets reported on a weekly basis by me and I had other people report him aswell. He's active for years and nothing whatsoever has happened to him. Your argument is extremly weak because reality is proving it wrong. It is as if I were to claim the sky is neon green. My claim could only stand till we go outside and actually have an look at it. Just that in your case I'd still be claiming the sky is green despite it obviously being not green.

So you didn't report this guy, why? You're complaining about bots, he's running one. If you haven't been filing regular reports against him, you're contributing to the problem you're complaining about.

I infact have reported him, so did other people. But nothing whatsoever happened.

Again; bots aren't easy to catch. There are ways to slightly randomize things. If someone is watching the account, they can respond and take over when a GM makes contact. Other hacks, like the one that lets you "fly" in pandaria without being level 90, are much easier to detect. Someone following a consistent path does not mean they're a bot. It might suggest it, but it doesn't prove it, and Blizzard can't take action against their account without reasonable proof.

Not worth an answer at all. But for the sake of this argument, noticing someone running Halls of Lightning 24/7 shouldn't be hard. No actual play would do such a thing. Same goes for a great many other farm bots who for prolonged ammounts of time do the exact same thing over and over and over again.

They do issue bans. Hell, I've been banned. It was overturned because I wasn't actually botting, but my activity was apparently suspicious enough to trigger action.

THIS has nothing to do with botting whatsoever. You most likely moved an big ammount of gold from one account to another, that's the only time I ever got an temporary ban myself when I gifted my sister around 100k around Wotlk. Which funnily enough goes exactly with what other people here said, they react only when it comes to gold selling and not botting.

People have the wrong time frame. They aren't going to ban a botter later that week when they see the ticket. They're going to add it to the list, and issue all those bans at the same time in a month or three. They WANT botters to think they're safe, so they can catch more of them.

This argument holds no weight whatsoever and is completly hollow. The bots I'm talking about aren't some that merely showed up a few days ago, a great many of them are around for years and they have been reported. If what you were saying would be true then their ban waves would need to be further apart then half an decade.
Botters don't feel safe, they are safe on the European Realms.

And the change in the EU servers is relatively recent. Again; they may need to update their policy to account for the change, but that doesn't mean they don't have a policy or aren't taking action, it simply means the cheaters have stepped up their activity and Blizzard hasn't formulated a response yet. Because, again, banning paying customers is something they want to be VERY sure they're in the right about. Changing the policy around that isn't a simple procedure and almost certainly requires upper management to sign off on the proposal.

This issue existed back in Wrath, it got far worse in Cataclysm and it completly escalted in MoP and nothing whatsoever happened. At this point it's not merely about banning people who MIGHT or COULD MAYBE innocent it's about other people leaving over this. It is completly destroying random battlegrounds, it is turning farming into an more horrible experience it already is, it costs Blizzard more paying customers then keeping those bots around brings them money on the long run.

Blizzard is hemorrhaging customers for quite some time and issues like this, the Arena exploit and the fact that no action whatsoever has been undertaken against those involved alongisde other issues is only speeding this process up. There are fewer and fewer "full" realms around on my language and others dropped from medium to low by now with ghost realms being quite common nowadays.
And issues like this alongside the fact that Blizzard has pretty much stopped any kind of customer support are directly contributing to this issue.

Any reasonable company would undertake steps against this. Sadly Blizzard is an American company and thus isn't reasonable. They're not about sustainability and longevity but about short term gains.

You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead. Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow dropped dead

[Endus]

Your logic is flawed. It shouldn't be banned because many people are doing it isn't an good argument, since many people are doing it because Blizzard has been to reluctant to ban the botters so people felt there is no danger in doing so. Botting no matter the circumstances should lead to an permanent and immediate ban or at the very least the infractions should not be subjugated to decay so these people get an permanent ban at the second botting offense at the very least.

That wasn't my argument.

And no, botting isn't in any way, shape, or form an egregious enough offense to warrant a permaban for a first offense. Or even a second. The issue with it today is not the severity of one person doing it, it's that the practice has become more widespread suddenly.

Not worth an answer at all. But for the sake of this argument, noticing someone running Halls of Lightning 24/7 shouldn't be hard. No actual play would do such a thing. Same goes for a great many other farm bots who for prolonged ammounts of time do the exact same thing over and over and over again.

Running Halls of Lightning 24/7 isn't against any rules of the game. That's the issue.

You're noticing something suspicious. Suspicious activity doesn't translate into proof of cheating.

THIS has nothing to do with botting whatsoever. You most likely moved an big ammount of gold from one account to another, that's the only time I ever got an temporary ban myself when I gifted my sister around 100k around Wotlk. Which funnily enough goes exactly with what other people here said, they react only when it comes to gold selling and not botting.

I didn't move large sums of money. I have the most gold I've ever had, today, and it's still under 100k. Nor was any noticable sum transferred between accounts; I only have the one account, and the only things changing hands were between my farming toon and my main.

I know exactly why I was banned. It was a (false) suspicion of botting, which I managed to get cleared up. Your argument that nobody gets banned for it is false.

Sadly Blizzard is an American company and thus isn't reasonable.

And now you're just nation-bashing.

[Deleted]

I had an proper answer typed out, the problem is that there's no point in posting it. You're defending bots even when it is obvious they're bots coming up with the whole "you need actual proof" even though game logs alone should be enough to show any reasonable people that those aren't real players.

Also your whole "you need proof" argument is lacking at best. You don't, at least not definite proof. You don't have to storm someone's flat and find the computers the bots are running on. It's a game, a game owned by Blizzard. If they wanted they could ban you for minor offenses just because they feel like doing so and the best you could do about it is getting the money you paid for the current month back.

Botting people DESERVE a permanent ban, if for the first or second offense is debatable but anything below that simply wont do. And you just saying "no they don't" doesn't change a thing about that.


In all honesty all this argument did was to convince me that you're botting yourself.

[Endus]

I had an proper answer typed out, the problem is that there's no point in posting it. You're defending bots even when it is obvious they're bots coming up with the whole "you need actual proof" even though game logs alone should be enough to show any reasonable people that those aren't real players.

There isn't a flag in the game logs saying "I am being run by a bot". Nor is following a pattern for hours necessarily proof, either. Yes, it's unlikely someone can or would play for days on end doing the same pattern over and over, but Blizzard needs to have it reported to be brought to their attention as they aren't watching every one of the millions of players. And once reported, they need to investigate, and then, if they determine it to be a botter, they get added to the list for the next ban wave.

That's why people think reports aren't being acted on; because the report doesn't get dealt with immediately (even tickets take days to get a response), and then the action isn't dealt out immediately after that. And a lot of people using bots aren't using them 24/7; if you run a fishbot for 2-3 hours a day and are sitting at your PC to respond to GMs if need be, it's VERY difficult to establish that you're actually doing anything illegal. The ONLY way to tell via in-game logs in that case is if their responses are always robotically identical in timing, without the slight variation in milliseconds actual human interaction would carry. And a good bot can emulate than randomness.

Also your whole "you need proof" argument is lacking at best. You don't, at least not definite proof. You don't have to storm someone's flat and find the computers the bots are running on. It's a game, a game owned by Blizzard. If they wanted they could ban you for minor offenses just because they feel like doing so and the best you could do about it is getting the money you paid for the current month back.

They could ban you because they think you're wearing a blue shirt. That doesn't mean they'd do so, or that they take banning customers as flippantly as you're suggesting they should.

Botting people DESERVE a permanent ban, if for the first or second offense is debatable but anything below that simply wont do. And you just saying "no they don't" doesn't change a thing about that.

If they keep it up, they'll get a permaban eventually as they keep getting caught. It's no different than other cases of rulebreaking. Botting's not fundamentally any different than anything else, like modifying game files to change models, or spamming chat channels, or making character names that are racially offensive. If it's bad, you'll get reported, and likely get a temp ban. Keep it up, they'll get worse, and eventually they'll decide to perma you.

Botting isn't some uberoffense that should be treated more harshly than the others.

In all honesty all this argument did was to convince me that you're botting yourself.

Yes, the only way I could possibly be explaining Blizzard's actual stated policy is if I'm a botter myself. You're being absolutely ridiculous, now, and you're just resorting to useless ad hominem.

[loki504]

make 500 topics about how great blizzard is and i'm 100% they will lock just as much.

why you need multiply topics about the same problem? and when they ban someone they come here because they got banned because they wanted to talk about bots. but the main reason was the alrdy stupid amount of people making the topics. and there all basicly the same. so yea its normal they lock/delete them.