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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    What you're saying is completely nonsensical. You have a definition of raider as someone that is pushing current content. Is LFR MV or HOF or Terrace NOT current content? Were people that were running MC when Naxx was out not raiders? Come on now.
    LFR is not "current content" by any means of the imagination. I can solo heal pretty much every one of those instances on my main. It doesn't require gear or coordination, it just requires breathing people. To references of garalon, it doesn't require coordination either when, as long as one or two other healers are pressing buttons and doing 20-30k hps, I can heal the rest of the constant 20stack damage. Blizzard has removed the majority of personal responsibility REQUIREMENTS on LFR. Making it easier and easier to brute force.

    I consider raiding any group of people consistently coming together to progress through content, normal or heroic whatever you like or have time for, but LFR is a group of people who expect to mostly bruteforce easy content for gear upgrades. A good majority of those people may BE raiders trying to get gear to help their raid group (by improving their performance), but the practice of doing LFR is NOT raiding in my opinion. Seeing a raid =/= being a raider.

    I've seen some posts saying that others are trying to make themselves feel better about "being a raider" by having their definition of raider. (Specifically refering to Mirishka). Personally, I don't care what someone does with their time or how they spend their time for fun in the game. I don't think a "raider" is better than a "non-raider" or a "pvp'er" is better than a "raider" or any other extension of those comparisons. However I do think that there are different definitions of how someone plays the game. Some people arena. Some people BG. Some people raid. Some people do challenge modes. Some people just do a whole lot of everything (or nothing). None of that has any effect on my enjoyment of the game, and I don't really care how they do it. However, when we're arguing over the semantics of one specific definition I won't shy away from saying what I consider raiding or not. The core part of what I consider raiding is a group of people coming together consistently to work together to progress through content. The rest of my statements stem from that. So if we were to debate what raiding is, that's where I would start.

  2. #122
    Everyone is trying to post their claim to a very vague noun.

    There are a couple of kids on the local basket ball team here that are all basket ball players. Lebron James is also a basket ball player. Does that mean the two are equal? No.

    Let me introduce you to my friend the adjective.

    Casual Raider
    Fail Raider
    Hardcore Raider
    Sexy Raider
    Oakland Raider

    Your Semantic issue has been resolved. If youre butthurt use an adjective. I should stitch that on a pillow....

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathquoi View Post
    Who made you the Chief Arbiter of Raiding Titles?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 06:25 PM ----------



    Some people are really insecure and they get mad when other people get to have nice things too.
    The title itself reqires "raiders" to be defined in order to figure out why or when they started giving up so easy. If you cant define them then this whole thread is pointless. When 10 milion people play this game chances are you will meet bad or unmotivated people if you decide to call them all raiders just because they enered a instance together then chances are raiders started giving up so damn easy in Classic wow.
    Pretend this is a amazing sig with my character holding an legendary.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard2202 View Post
    I see a lot of people in this thread saying you're not a raider unless you meet a certain arbitrary criteria.

    If you regularly enter raid instances with a group of players larger than that of a five-man instance and work with them to defeat the content, you are a raider. I don't care how easy it is, it still requires the cumulative effort (as minor as that effort may be) of those players in order to actually defeat the bosses.

    You are not only considered a raider "if you have MSV down" or "if you did Dragon Soul LFR" or "if you got 8/8 H DS25" or any other arbitrary requirement that separates raiders from non-raiders.

    None of the people who posted here that said "you are not a raider unless you X" are probably conveniently just ahead of the arbitrary requirement they just made up.

    This "I am better than these non-raiders" attitude is what causes the very problem OP brought up. A bunch of players see ONE WIPE and say "look at all these players who are worse than me, I'm just going to leave" and ruin the fun for everyone.

    Some raiders are better than others. Some raiders raid more than others. Some raiders pug old content, other raiders have a set team that they work with week after week to get stuff down. They're all raiders.

    If you want to get into the semantics of what is a 'casual' raider and what is a 'hardcore' raider, please feel free to do so somewhere else, because half of you haven't even stayed on topic to answer OP's question.
    Several things:
    First off, you say people come with their own definition, and then you say that it has to be above 5-man to be defined as raid. Why?

    If I go into Molten core every week with a group of 40 people we're raiders in your eyes? your definition is the sole thing that people gather for it? Not even as friends, since lfr is random people gathering for it. So what is it you're saying more specifically that makes them raiders?

    I agree with you on the very few people saying you need to be far into HC to be called raider though.

    And to save you to read back. I replied on OPs question in first post
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  5. #125
    I am Murloc! Grym's Avatar
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    The problem is, DS is an old raid, an old raid that has been there for fucking ages, towards the end of DS's life, even PUGs can go in and 8/8 HC. Now that people going back there as Lv90, with ilvl 463+ gear, they would, and should, expect to faceroll it. Wiping to something that was PUGable as current content after the the next expansion came out is just silly.

    You mentioned Ultraxion, it was 8man dps-able back in DS era, now you can probably 3 man dps it and not hit enrage timer. Unless it was tank and healers that died, if it was dps that died to Hours of Twilight, there must have been A LOT of you failing the mechanics, can you really blame the people that left?

  6. #126
    Banned Gandrake's Avatar
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    This is what it's like when you run any undedicated raid, whether it's old content or not.

    People would give up on LK HC because players would full retard on defiles or some guy would suck at doing infusions.

    Old content is old, outdated, irrelevant for a reason. Whether or not the people who left were actually doing what they were supposed to, they definitely had the right of it in that light. Transmog/Ach runs should be quick, with the exceptions of some achievements like, say, Share The Love.

  7. #127
    im a baddie

  8. #128
    Holy Priest Saphyron's Avatar
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    Question then. You all say raiders are bunch of people who come together each week to progress current content.

    What if I was in a lvl 60 only guild and did molten core with 39 other 60's. would that not be defined as raiding?
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosjones View Post
    Question then. You all say raiders are bunch of people who come together each week to progress current content.

    What if I was in a lvl 60 only guild and did molten core with 39 other 60's. would that not be defined as raiding?
    The game is infinitely easier.

    A current level 60 would be way stronger than a level 60 at the time.

    Heirlooms, talents, stat scaling in general, skills.

    So no.

  10. #130
    its more about people that cba to spend the time. that's the reason i dont go anywhere without guildies even in random hcs. if there arent enough people i know to help me carry the group i cba to spend the time as i could allocate that time in something better

  11. #131
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    Sounds like a bad group to me. Get back out there and sometimes you'll find amazing groups that never wipe =P

  12. #132
    Holy crap, all these people sitting here talking about casuals/hardcores/raiders/scrubs... you "hardcore" folks act like having enough time to sit around and get geared up enough to do this heroic content somehow makes you better than the general populace.

    No, I didn't finish heroic DS for those of you prattling on about that. I got 5/8 HC. But that doesn't mean I'm not a raider. I have a JOB. I have a LIFE. I'm good enough that even having only a couple hours a week to even devote to something like a video game doesn't mean that I can't keep up with the others who sit on this game all damn day running heroics and LFR for VP and gear.

    I did raiding because I was good at it and it was a fun means to spend time with my friends. And I DEFINITELY don't think sitting on my butt that long is something to rub in other people's faces.

    What's that? You should be able to say whatever you want to anyone in the world because you earned Realm First today? Oh, ok. I guess that means I can talk down to you too since I earned a paycheck today, and spent time with my family/friends.

    What DOES make people different on this game is the attitude. You have those who aren't very good at their class and aren't willing to listen to advice and get better, those who are good but think it makes them better than everyone else, those who aren't good but are eager to learn, and those who are good AND are humble about it, sharing their tips and tactics/dungeon strategies/game knowledge with those who ask/need help instead of hogging it to themselves and calling everyone else "bads."

    Quit it with the elitist crap, seriously. It's been old since vanilla. You're NOT better than anyone else because you downed heroic content when it was current. You're a person. I'm a person. We play the same game.

    Play it nicely, ffs.

  13. #133
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Srsbsnsbro View Post
    Holy crap, all these people sitting here talking about casuals/hardcores/raiders/scrubs... you "hardcore" folks act like having enough time to sit around and get geared up enough to do this heroic content somehow makes you better than the general populace.

    No, I didn't finish heroic DS for those of you prattling on about that. I got 5/8 HC. But that doesn't mean I'm not a raider. I have a JOB. I have a LIFE. I'm good enough that even having only a couple hours a week to even devote to something like a video game doesn't mean that I can't keep up with the others who sit on this game all damn day running heroics and LFR for VP and gear.

    I did raiding because I was good at it and it was a fun means to spend time with my friends. And I DEFINITELY don't think sitting on my butt that long is something to rub in other people's faces.

    What's that? You should be able to say whatever you want to anyone in the world because you earned Realm First today? Oh, ok. I guess that means I can talk down to you too since I earned a paycheck today, and spent time with my family/friends.

    What DOES make people different on this game is the attitude. You have those who aren't very good at their class and aren't willing to listen to advice and get better, those who are good but think it makes them better than everyone else, those who aren't good but are eager to learn, and those who are good AND are humble about it, sharing their tips and tactics/dungeon strategies/game knowledge with those who ask/need help instead of hogging it to themselves and calling everyone else "bads."

    Quit it with the elitist crap, seriously. It's been old since vanilla. You're NOT better than anyone else because you downed heroic content when it was current. You're a person. I'm a person. We play the same game.

    Play it nicely, ffs.
    People who down Heroic content while it's current and before 35% nerf are in fact better than your average WoW player. Not as human beings but as players - just saying.

    Most people here just want a clear definition of the term "raider", since that's the group that the OP is accusing to be lazy and give up easily.

    I still stick to my previous post; people who enter BT as a raid group of 6 persons are NOT raiders, they just clear old content in a raid group - see what I did there?

    People who go back to Heroic DS and fail on Ultraxion are NOT raiders, they're either new to the game or casuals who want to see Heroic DS and get achievements. Had I been in the OP's group, I would have bailed as well. Not because I give up easy or because I don't wanna wipe, cause I do that every single time I raid progression. Wiping over and over on a Heroic boss and still I keep going. That's raider mentality tbh.

    I would have left, cause wiping to something as silly as Ultraxion is just /facepalm and I wouldn't waste my time with people who fails at something that simple. That's not saying, I'm a better human being but it's clearly that I'm a better player than those who fail at Ultraxion. See the difference?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    The game is infinitely easier.

    A current level 60 would be way stronger than a level 60 at the time.

    Heirlooms, talents, stat scaling in general, skills.

    So no.
    Why does difficulty have to imply any god damned thing at all? That's absurd. It's like saying someone beating a game on anything but the hardest difficulty flat out doesn't count. You're using arbitrary rules to prop one group up, and put another group down. Simple as that.

  15. #135
    Deleted
    So basically if OP had named this thread "since when did people give up so damn easily", we'd actually have on-topic conversation.

    It's been happening for some time with old raids. In 4.3.4, I joined a PUG to 5-man Sartharion 25 3D, with average geared people. Obviously this wasn't going to work by burning down Sartharion before Shadron opens his portal (and then, by the time we realize what's happening, Vesperon lands and opens his portal, all of the drakes' auras stack and everything goes to shit in 5 seconds flat). The thing is, nobody had bothered explaining the strategy. I don't think anybody actually knew the strat. I didn't either at the time, so I asked the raid leader "Why did Sarth go immune ? What was the original strat ?". I never did get an explanation, and the RL got mad and kicked everyone after two wipes. Most likely he didn't even know the strat, and didn't want to know.

    Thing is, now that we over-gear content, people think they're entitled to old content just by waltzing in there and pwning faces with their sweet DPS and huge health pool, grabbing all the cool transmogs, mounts and achievements with no effort involved. If we're wiping, it's just because you're baddies who aren't putting out enough DPS ! Sure, but sometimes I think it's time to step down and read the patch 3.0 strat. Get some humility and try it the way it's supposed to be done ?

    I did it again last night, with one 90 tank, two 90 DPSs (all three of us around 460 ilvl) and a 89 DPS. I kept telling the group that if we couldn't make it, maybe we should, you know, actually switch targets and kill the drakes. Everyone kept telling me I didn't know anything about the strat, that we OBVIOUSLY must keep the 3 drakes alive throughout the entire fight to be in hard mode (tbh the achievement is badly worded). We cheesed it by stacking on as many buffs as we could and burning Sarth down before Shadron landed, after many attempts. I can imagine what would have happened if we hadn't - everybody leaving group and not even bothering to read the original strat and trying it.

  16. #136
    since you like to discuss what a "raider" is:
    a raider is someone who is willing to commit a lot of time on a task that needs to be done by 10/25 people. someone who joins a pug/lfr and gets angry after 2 wipes is not a raider. there are not many raiders in wow anymore. it's by design, becasue blizzard hands out free epics in LFR.

  17. #137
    Deleted
    For those that say, you are not a raider if you never done Cataclysm raids, is so untrue. I wish I could see that content so much...but because I missed the expansion it just feels like I'm being held back. And I'm too busy progression on current content in all three raids that I just have no time learning those mechanics yet, hopefully in future. ^^

  18. #138
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Yeah calling ppl doing a DS pug now raiders is like calling me a Civil War vet because I just visited Gettysburg.
    Its a raid, they're 10 man in there. Dont see how its not a raid then.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Its a raid, they're 10 man in there. Dont see how its not a raid then.
    Sky is blue, grass is green, people get confused on semantics. The truth is a raider is someone who, with 5+ people, goes around and kills stuff. Whether that be heroic Stone Guard, Illidan, Garrosh, or some poor level 4 night elf. To try to draw lines in the sand stating "well if it isn't super current it doesn't count" is both childish and being completely oblivious to the concept of raiding.

    Heck one could argue that, as long as you are not by yourself in a raid, you could be considered raiding when you are killing stuff in a raid.

  20. #140

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