Hello, I'm an American Gun owner.

[Holofernes]

well it depends.

there are people who own a gun and use and take care of it with the needed responsibility. I had a rifle and a sidearm with me for more than a year, and i still felt bad if some retard pointed it at me back in military service. U learn to be responsible with it. U feel the weight of a rifle with ammo in it.

Then there are people who never were at military service, know nothing about guns, but have one. this is the dangerous part.

The most important thing is the accommodation of firearms. No need having the child playing with the loaded gun, it found in the parents bedroom. There needs to be a save and it needs to be closed.

I personally think having at least one year military service and a 1a reputation ( no drug abuse, no alcohole addiction and so on) should be a requirements for possessing a gun.

[Raidenx]

I'm not sure why conservatives are even talking about this. I'm hard left and I own a gun. No one is trying to take away your guns, find something else to whine about.

There are a lot of vocal leftists that think nobody should have guns in America even though most left people like guns too

didnt the supreme court just barely keep the second amendment as it stood recently like 5-4?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMGXXvb8RO4

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 10:52 PM ----------

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but should push come to shove the military would crush any rebellion effortlessly. Tanks and drones beat well-armed civilians.

if the military wants to kill its own people

they arent robots

[Kalyyn]

None of those countries had drones or modern tanks in their regular armies. You also mentioned Afghanistan 3 times.

I should have mentioned it 6 times. Afghanistan has been fending off vastly superior armies since the dawn of time.

And how could you argue against me on this? I understand seeing the claim coming from people who lack a basic understanding of the art of war, but you of all people should realize how brutal and effective a determined rebellion can be.

[Verain]

you are wrong sir im former Military and my wife is a Police officer and on the swat team. Holmes used a S&W MP15 which is a variant of the AR 15 the MP in the name stands for Military and Police and it is an ASSAULT RIFLE even though it is not fully automatic you can shoot it as fast as you can pull the trigger

Which means...
Wait for it...


IT IS NOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE

He linked you to the fucking definition. Don't be ludicrous.



Assault rifles are selective fire capable. To make semiautos sound scary, a bunch of idiots in the media came up with the similar sounding "assault weapon", which means nothing and has no definition, to confuse people into thinking they were banning assault rifles (which are already banned and have been since like the 30s).

[Deleted]

well it depends.

there are people who own a gun and use and take care of it with the needed responsibility. I had a rifle and a sidearm with me for more than a year, and i still felt bad if some retard pointed it at me back in military service. U learn to be responsible with it. U feel the weight of a rifle with ammo in it.

Then there are people who never were at military service, know nothing about guns, but have one. this is the dangerous part.

The most important thing is the accommodation of firearms. No need having the child playing with the loaded gun, it found in the parents bedroom. There needs to be a save and it needs to be closed.

I personally think having at least one year military service and a 1a reputation ( no drug abuse, no alcohole addiction and so on) should be a requirements for possessing a gun.

I Disagree with that, not being in the military does not mean you are irresponsible. I do believe that everybody, military or not needs to pass a firearms safety course. This course should cover range safety, firearms law, types of firearms and basic maintenance. Also included should be basic first aid, you never know....

[Rend Blackhand]

I Disagree with that, not being in the military does not mean you are irresponsible. I do believe that everybody, military or not needs to pass a firearms safety course. This course should cover range safety, firearms law, types of firearms and basic maintenance. Also included should be basic first aid, you never know....

RICH1471, I revere your wisdom!

[Deleted]

I should have mentioned it 6 times. Afghanistan has been fending off vastly superior armies since the dawn of time.

And how could you argue against me on this? I understand seeing the claim coming from people who lack a basic understanding of the art of war, but you of all people should realize how brutal and effective a determined rebellion can be.

No one can conquer Afghanistan, not because they are so tenacious, but because they are so tribal. Its like trying to get every gang in the USA to agree with each other and unite, it wont happen. In the mean time they will cause havoc.

[Kalyyn]

What job do you do in the airforce by the way? Last time you mentioned your job you were working in the cafeteria.

I used to do that part-time when I wasn't in school to earn some extra cash on alternate UTAs. I work as a console-controller in our command post.

[Deleted]

RICH1471, I revere your wisdom!

I am not wise. Just been fucked over so many times I am starting to learn. In 20 years I may be wise (if I am still alive).

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 10:58 PM ----------

I used to do that part-time when I wasn't in school to earn some extra cash on alternate UTAs. I work as a console-controller in our command post.

What is your MOS? We dont use MOS in the UK forces, so still trying to learn all the yank ones.

[dantian]

France.

France? What are you even referring to here?

Vietnam.

Okay, you got me there.

Afghanistan.
Iraq.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but don't conservatives generally consider these wars to be "victories"?

The point still stands for these two, Iraq got the shit kicked out of it. The reason the war was a loss is because the primary objective wasn't toppling the regime, which was done relatively easily, but changing the geopolitical landscape of the region for the better, which didn't happen. They never posed much actual military threat, just like an uprising of rednecks wouldn't.

Libya.

America assisted the rebels, without which they would have lost.

[Mihalik]

OP good for you.

Now I'm a European coming from a place where you literally never see firearms unless it's a military parade or the police are wearing it. Today I live in another European country where the situation is pretty much the same. Altought there is one difference. This country has a strong hunting culture. (Hey the King's 10 year old grandkid shot himself in the foot while hunting under parental supervision!) Regardless. You literally never EVER see firearms. Criminals don't have acces to it. Usually when police raids go down there are no shoot outs. Ever. Even the local terrorist organization is largely unarmed. They resort mostly to the use of home made bombs or hunting rifles. You don't ever see them running around with assault rifle's, submachine guns etc. So whenever anything goes down the police completly outgun the shit out of anyone, usually completly avoiding the use a violence, thanks to the intimidation factor, you are not likely to go up against a police fireteam in kevlar with assault rifles if all you have is a really long knife a replica katana and a piece of crap buckshot.

The point is this.

What is a firearm?

It is a tool designed to kill or wound. It is not useful for anything else. You can't build houses with it, can't work your land with it, can't cook food with it etc. etc.

It is designed to kill and main. Animals or other people. If we would have to go out and hunt for our lunch every day like our ancestors have, I would get the reason for needing to own one. But we don't. We get our food from farms and ranches and we hunt them in our local supermarket.

In our day and age could you have a gun? Sure why not? I can think of a good couple of reasons.

You are a sports shooter.
You are a collector.
You hunt for a sport (I think this is stupid, but who am I to judge.)

None of the above justify you owning functional and loaded automatic, semi automatic or such pistols, rifles, submachine guns etc. etc.
None of the above justify you being able to transport a loaded firearm.

The fact is guns are bad. There are no "good" uses for a gun. Even when the police is forced to use a gun, it is a horrible situation. It happens because there is no other option, because they often need to take lives to save others. It's a no win situation. Everytime a person is shot, innocent or criminal a life is taken, without due process (if you are a fan of the death sentence). And death is always final. You can't repent, change your mind or anything. And also mistakes happen.

You can't argue that living in a unarmed society is more unsafe then living in a armed one. Most European countries have very strict gun control laws and much higher public safety then most of the United States.

I studied for 2 years in the States. And I have to tell you I have been in many more violent situations or borderline violent situations then during my 2 years of studies in London. (And believe me London is not a shining star of public safety by European standards.)

Now there is one final fact.

I don't think the US will ever be a gun free society. For cultural and practical reasons.

When you have so many guns in a society like in the US, once you try to implement gun control only the honest folk would give up their guns. So on the short term public safety would drop. It would be a decades long period untill law enforcement would be able to bring illegal guns under control.

[Deleted]

Very good to see these links in this discussion, hopefully folks actually take the time to read through them. Thanks!

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 08:50 PM ----------



Sweden says HI DAR BUDDDDY we are doing fine over here....... I actually don't live in Sweden but you should educate yourself a bit more before speaking. Ignorance is actually WAY more dangerous than firearms. There are some places that when you leave military service you keep your military weapons such as a rifle that is capable of with one switch of a lever go to full auto. Very low crime rates by the way, extremely low. You do the research if you want or just keep spewing your goodness.

He said arming an entire population, having ex-soldiers keep their guns is hardly the same as Tom and Nancy from down the road.

[Denpepe]

hmm let's see according to gunpolicy.org (no idea how accurate this site is)

UK (very strict gun laws) chance to get killed by a gun is around 0.05 per 100.000 population
USA (not so strict gun laws) chance to get killed by a gun is around 3.20 per 100.000 population

as other people have said, and what should be common sence, if you get robbed cooperate and chances of someone dying/getting hurt are slim to none, fight back and there is a good chance you get hurt or killed. Most thieves do not rob people to hurt them. (let alone the fact that jail time for a simple robbery will be a whole lot smaller then one involving deaths) And people wonder why the police shoot firts and ask questions later in the USA

I'm not against private persons owning guns, there should however be better control as to who can buy guns and people should be trained in their use and when not beeing used or transported they should be locked away safely.

[Kalyyn]

What is your MOS? We dont use MOS in the UK forces, so still trying to learn all the yank ones.

Operations Intelligence. Which is nowhere near as cool as it sounds (80% of my job involves email and powerpoint presentations...)

[Rotted]

UK here

My old man owns a shotgun, was fairly simple to get it with a license, now its a pain in the arse to get it checked each renewal date

Soon as Im 25, 22 now, I intend to apply for one, simply because the line of work I want to go in, they prefer a gun license, especially how to use a rifle

I dont have a problem with people in USA owning a gun for protection or work, what I do have a problem with, is people who think its alright to own a wide variety of different guns, you know these ones with basements full, and people who use them as protection, disable a person, then proceed to slaughter them, then get away with it, I do think America needs to be more picky with who they allow guns to,

then again plenty are avaiable on the street

[Holofernes]

if i recall correctly, alexander of makedonia conquered big parts of what is today called afghanistan. but that was nearly 2,5 k years ago.

[Rend Blackhand]

USA (not so strict gun laws) chance to get killed by a gun is around 3.20 per 100.000 population

That's all fine and good as a statistic but how many of those killings were carried out with a legally owned weapon?

[Lagwin]

It's little wonder the can't control the recoil with their postures, they should have a leg behind them and lean slightly forward but most of them are standing normally or worse slouching back

[tombstoner139]

Uh this is just hilarious, I don't even really know where to start.

Since I am feeling nice I will point you to some things you can read to enlighten you. On the rights front, you might want to start with Heller and McDonald to see two standing cases in which SCOTUS laid this question to rest. To summarize, 2nd protects an individual right to bear arms and this right is incorporated (ie it also applies to states)

PS: Could you show me the section of the US constitution that deals with an amendment going out of date in other way than a new amendment? I would love to see your sources.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

source "http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html"

The state militias created by the constitution where later incorporated into the national guard. "http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/10503"
and "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903"
Its my understanding the national guard is a federally controlled part of the us military. The state and federal military where supposed to remain separate. but due to the Federal governments need to rapidly expand its military. the national guard was formed. basically the federal government adsorbed all the states military. this i beleave is an example of how a constitutional amendment can be circumvented. placing almost all military power in the hands of the federal government.
yes you can have a state defense force composed of people in the community but they are vastly out gunned. Technology has shifted the balance of military power from the states to the federal government. also within the constitution the federal government can't grant money for the creation of a military for a period of no more then 2 years: so they do it every year. circumventing the Constitution with a legal technicality. thus we get a massive federal military i think the founding fathers would be aghast at its size.

[Deleted]

Operations Intelligence. Which is nowhere near as cool as it sounds (80% of my job involves email and powerpoint presentations...)

Yeah, done some work with our int guys myself, poor sods thought it was all James Bond Also, we have a term in the British Army, "Death by powerpoint". 6+ hours of powerpoint presentations should be illegal under the Geneva convention.