1. #3741
    Skewer is rather painful for victims but can also be troublesome for allies as it may place people out of range, It's an ability with a few uses; Escape, initiate or CC. I don't believe it's truely the issue.

    The nerf will most likely have to be in the Ult as 4 seconds is a very long time, and it's not uncommon for a Magnus to 1v5 a team in the duration of the stun.

    As much as I love Magnus I have to admit the Ult MUST be nerfed it's the love child of Tidehunter and Dark seer being a stun + vortex.

  2. #3742
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    when they stop assuming their skill alone makes an argument
    A lot of the things we talk about end up being opinion. "Is a hero too strong," you can argue that there is a yes/no answer to this, but honestly, this will come down to opinion for most of us because the question is so vague. If you were to say "is Drow too strong in professional games" there would be an answer, but the game is so much more deep than a dozen games every few months.

    Speaking of Drow, new most hated hero easily. Ultimate is probably just as godmode as morph strength is. She can go mid with no regen, get killed 4 times in a row, but the second she hits 6 she will VASTLY outfarm everyone on the map and there really isn't a single thing you can do to stop it. All her team has to do is turtle for 15 minutes while she farms up manta buriza by 30 minutes and then proceeds to one shot everyone on your team for a nice, easy "GG."

    I'm getting really sick of Drow pickers starting out anywhere from 0-3 to 0-8 and ending up with a beyond godlike spree and winning because her ultimate is quite simply just-too-much-f***ing-damage combined with her aura. Your only real option when they pick drow seems to be to stack the living hell out of CCs and try to kill her before she fires a single shot.

    Also, what's up with all the game declines lately? I'm having to sit through a dozen 9/10s to get a game every single time, just like it was months ago before they added decline lockouts.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-28 at 03:56 AM.

  3. #3743
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyriok View Post
    Skewer is rather painful for victims but can also be troublesome for allies as it may place people out of range, It's an ability with a few uses; Escape, initiate or CC. I don't believe it's truely the issue.

    The nerf will most likely have to be in the Ult as 4 seconds is a very long time, and it's not uncommon for a Magnus to 1v5 a team in the duration of the stun.

    As much as I love Magnus I have to admit the Ult MUST be nerfed it's the love child of Tidehunter and Dark seer being a stun + vortex.
    I wasn't suggesting that Skewer needs a nerf, it's quite fine as it is. It's just that I remembered Magnus as a very powerful but item dependent hero, but Skewer makes the rest of his abilities even better than they were, and like you and I both suggested, revising the rest of his abilities (or just RP) to match the the version of Magnus with Skewer seems appropriate.

  4. #3744
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that Skewer needs a nerf, it's quite fine as it is. It's just that I remembered Magnus as a very powerful but item dependent hero, but Skewer makes the rest of his abilities even better than they were, and like you and I both suggested, revising the rest of his abilities (or just RP) to match the the version of Magnus with Skewer seems appropriate.
    Agreed, reducing the stun time will do the trick and I also believe a increased mana cost should be in place to counter a double polarity.

    Magnus is a fantastic pick but I play him as a jungle so a nice farm is guranteed if I don't get invaded and gurantees a win due to Empower + BF + Madness + Crystalis it's rather absurd.

  5. #3745
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    A lot of the things we talk about end up being opinion. "Is a hero too strong," you can argue that there is a yes/no answer to this, but honestly, this will come down to opinion for most of us because the question is so vague. If you were to say "is Drow too strong in professional games" there would be an answer, but the game is so much more deep than a dozen games every few months.
    I didn't mean to imply that experience of the speaker doesn't matter nor that I don't take it into consideration - when reading your posts, I tend to assume you know what you're talking about and when reading pizzasharks or someone else's posts I take their inexperience in consideration, at least where it's apparent. I simply don't respond that well when people post their opinions and expect other people to care or take them for granted. Everyone has an opinion, and for someone I don't know at all they'd have to either earn some respect, raise a good point or articulate themselves exceptionally well to make their opinions worth reading.

    That being said, you're kind of right about what you said first, maybe because balance in dota is pretty subjective. I imagine that even if God or someone helped Icefrog make dota completely balanced without changing the game too much we'd barely see a drop in the amount of balance QQ.

  6. #3746
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    That being said, you're kind of right about what you said first, maybe because balance in dota is pretty subjective. I imagine that even if God or someone helped Icefrog make dota completely balanced without changing the game too much we'd barely see a drop in the amount of balance QQ.
    Well balanced and fun are two different things, too. I lost yet another game to furion backdooring. Is furion OP because he can just take your rax while you team fight his allies? Not really, we didn't have a single hero who could stop him...doesn't make it fun. And people will call "lost the game because furion backdoored" furion being OP as a short way of saying "went 10-0-10 with slithice, still lost because the second I left my base I lost rax, zero fun had."

    At the end of the day, if it's a rock/paper/scissors game and you went paper and the enemy team is scissors you will feel like their heroes are overpowered.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-28 at 04:30 AM.

  7. #3747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyriok View Post
    Skewer is rather painful for victims but can also be troublesome for allies as it may place people out of range, It's an ability with a few uses; Escape, initiate or CC. I don't believe it's truely the issue.

    The nerf will most likely have to be in the Ult as 4 seconds is a very long time, and it's not uncommon for a Magnus to 1v5 a team in the duration of the stun.

    As much as I love Magnus I have to admit the Ult MUST be nerfed it's the love child of Tidehunter and Dark seer being a stun + vortex.
    The odd thing is that I haven't seen Magnus picked up a lot in recent pro games. I don't think I've been seeing him banned but I'll be honest, I skip the pick/ban phase nine times out of ten because I find it boring as hell. Usually it seems like TA is first pick and Sven and Jakiro show up sometime before the second ban phase.

    I think we'll see a LOT of Centaur if he gets into CM without additional changes. Double Edge is just stupidly good for him... it's an enormous amount of burst damage at all stages of the game (it'll drop off in the late game, but someone can buy a Veil or pick a hero like AA to boost its damage back up to relevancy) and since it has a small AOE component with 100% damage spread, it also allows him to farm very efficiently, especially in regards to stacked jungle camps. The self-damage component rapidly drops off as you finish Tranquil Boots + Ring of Health/Hood of Defiance. His stomp has always been good, his passive becomes pretty good as he gains more Strength, and while I wouldn't say his ulti is OP anymore, it's very strong, especially at level 16 when it's a 60 sec cooldown.

    I'll agree that Magnus landing a Reverse Polarity on multiple heroes is pretty much a won fight. Puts you into perfect position to get cleaved and stuns you for five years... and ignores BKB. Heh. I'd love to see a team with Magnus and PA. PA sounds like she could be really silly with Empower, Battle Fury, and whatever else she wants, cleaving close to 100% of 1.5k crits...

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 11:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Well balanced and fun are two different things, too. I lost yet another game to furion backdooring. Is furion OP because he can just take your rax while you team fight his allies? Not really, we didn't have a single hero who could stop him...doesn't make it fun. And people will call "lost the game because furion backdoored" furion being OP as a short way of saying "went 10-0-10 with slithice, still lost because the second I left my base I lost rax, zero fun had."

    At the end of the day, if it's a rock/paper/scissors game and you went paper and the enemy team is scissors you will feel like their heroes are overpowered.
    I'd also note that there are many OP abilities, but it's hard to determine if that makes the hero as a whole OP or not, especially since the areas you can pull relevant information from (professional games and "high MMR" games, which are presumably what the game's balanced around) tend to be trend-based regardless of the current state of a given hero in terms of "OP" or "not OP."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  8. #3748
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I'd also note that there are many OP abilities
    Remember when we talked about how OP is subjective and then this guy who is obsessed with seeing OP everywhere jumped here to tell what's OP this week?

    I'd also note that what's in your head still isn't reality. I already pointed it out when you complained about Smoke Bomb n pages back, but would you mind explaining how a hero that is fine can have an ability that is OP? You don't get those abilities on any other heroes, it makes no sense to say something like "Riki is fine but Smoke Bomb is OP." Either the hero is OP, maybe because said skill is OP, or they're both fine. Smoke Bomb might be OP on Krobelus, Storm Bolt might be OP on Rubick (as a base skill, considering he is one of those heroes with a separate nuke and separate CC), but unfortunately only Riki and Sven have access to them. With the exception of Spell Steal, of course.

    Besides, how do you make Double Edge extremely great farming ability if you first have to invest in a ton of HP regen to keep using it? Does that differ much from how some other heroes could invest in mana regen or BF to farm? And how is "someone can buy a veil to boost it" not something that applies to any hero with nukes?

    And this would be the third time you launch into an explanation about how super Double Edge is? What, did you think someone didn't get your opinion yet?
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-28 at 06:01 AM.

  9. #3749
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    The odd thing is that I haven't seen Magnus picked up a lot in recent pro games. I don't think I've been seeing him banned but I'll be honest, I skip the pick/ban phase nine times out of ten because I find it boring as hell. Usually it seems like TA is first pick and Sven and Jakiro show up sometime before the second ban phase.
    He was either picked or banned in EVERY game at Dreamhack. He was picked 13 times and won 11 of those games.

  10. #3750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Besides, how do you make Double Edge extremely great farming ability if you first have to invest in a ton of HP regen to keep using it? Does that differ much from how some other heroes could invest in mana regen or BF to farm? And how is "someone can buy a veil to boost it" not something that applies to any hero with nukes?
    Because in most cases you'd get those regen items anyway. Centy needs to be tanky and just like with Pudge having a magical self-damage skill, Hood (and potentially finishing into Pipe) is an easy choice. Tranquil Boots can be disassembled later and are becoming popular on a lot of heroes to make sure you can stay in lane regardless of harassment.

    I wasn't implying that Veil can't be combined with other nukes, but that Double Edge hits considerably harder than most nukes (400 base damage versus around 300-325 for most other nukes), has a very short cooldown, and mostly has no resource cost past a certain point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    He was either picked or banned in EVERY game at Dreamhack. He was picked 13 times and won 11 of those games.
    Haven't gotten around to watching Dreamhack. That'd probably be why I haven't seen him much, then :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  11. #3751
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    The thing about Magnus is that his mana is ASS. Arcanes are not an option, but mandatory, and that already locks him out of 8 STR/25 IAS. You could just get a carry with HotD and keep a manaburning satyr or whatever it was around and he'd be limited to tossing around two Shockwaves (or an Invoker with EMP lololo so skill rite guyise).

    Or... maybe just spread a bit around. Reverse Polarity does not have much of an AoE.

  12. #3752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tupimus View Post
    The thing about Magnus is that his mana is ASS. Arcanes are not an option, but mandatory, and that already locks him out of 8 STR/25 IAS. You could just get a carry with HotD and keep a manaburning satyr or whatever it was around and he'd be limited to tossing around two Shockwaves (or an Invoker with EMP lololo so skill rite guyise).

    Or... maybe just spread a bit around. Reverse Polarity does not have much of an AoE.
    I think the main concern is Skewer and how it makes it a lot easier for him to get a good RP off without needing blink dagger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #3753
    Well, if the other team all manage to get caught by Skewer, then they deserve to lose anyway.

  14. #3754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftero View Post
    Well, if the other team all manage to get caught by Skewer, then they deserve to lose anyway.
    He doesn't have to hit anyone to be able to use it as a supercharged Force Staff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  15. #3755
    Hilariously enough, I just played a game where my ally got FB'd at level 1 due to magic missile + skewer on to the dire ward spot next to ancients. Mags just used the first blood gold to crow and get a TP scroll. The distance skewer can carry someone is hilariously long, from dire bot's defensive river ward spot all the way through the river to the hill on the other side.

    He still lost that game to lothar's Sven though.

  16. #3756
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Hilariously enough, I just played a game where my ally got FB'd at level 1 due to magic missile + skewer on to the dire ward spot next to ancients. Mags just used the first blood gold to crow and get a TP scroll. The distance skewer can carry someone is hilariously long, from dire bot's defensive river ward spot all the way through the river to the hill on the other side.

    He still lost that game to lothar's Sven though.
    Glad to hear the idea I had about Pirate build Sven might actually be possible. Kunkka wishes Torrent was as good as stormbolt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  17. #3757
    I still assert lothar's being a good choice on virtually any hero depending on the game and how fast you can build it. I've seen a lot of BH players making shadow blade for the free 150 damage on their jinada, easy 800 crits 15 minutes in.

  18. #3758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I still assert lothar's being a good choice on virtually any hero depending on the game and how fast you can build it. I've seen a lot of BH players making shadow blade for the free 150 damage on their jinada, easy 800 crits 15 minutes in.
    Isn't it kind of a waste as you can already hit with +120 from Shadow walk?

    Obviously Jinada has a lower CD than Shadow Walk, but it still sounds like a waste of money and
    pushing your delicious desolator 1 shot further away.

  19. #3759
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    My buddy disagrees that PA+Magnus would be a strong combo. I disagree that she needs a ton of farm to be useful - assuming you decide to play aggressive, Vanguard takes care of her immediate health needs (or maybe even Tranquil Boots since those seem to be trending lately), and even with just, say, a Yasha or some other minor damage item, plus Magnus' Empower, she's easily capable of huge crits even at low levels... and those crits cleave for 50%, too.

    She's already a phenomenal chaser and has limited escape options with her blink strike and free evasion/minimap hiding. Shit, she'd probably be even better than Anti-Mage in a tri-lane due to her dagger alone, 50% slow on a short cooldown with enormous range would make it really hard to avoid Split Earth/Ice Path/etc.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  20. #3760
    Quote Originally Posted by juzalol View Post
    Isn't it kind of a waste as you can already hit with +120 from Shadow walk?

    Obviously Jinada has a lower CD than Shadow Walk, but it still sounds like a waste of money and
    pushing your delicious desolator 1 shot further away.
    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=369089

    Its not likely to be some superbuild, but it certainly is fun to play. it only requires good start and less opponents with CCs. Also Im gonna point out, even Korok and Bulba were playing with the idea and it was used in a tournament i think?

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