The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[Otora]

So with ascension we still just want the 13.33 energy regen, correct?

[Feepit]

Wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions on my stats [Or possibly direct me to the proper place to ask]
Currently at 14.21 energy regen unbuffed with Ascension.
Thanks!

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Freepit/simple

[SurrealNight]

So with ascension we still just want the 13.33 energy regen, correct?

That is the theory at least Ascension just means it becomes MUCH easier to reach that point leaving a lot of room to go into Crit or whatever you want. Hell if you only need 2500 haste I might consider putting more into expertise but 5k more Crit is tasty sounding too =P

Also this would give people the chance to really experiment with haste beyond 13.33 energy since it's so easy to break the "cap" now.

[The Madgod]

After doing some work in HoF last night I was really happy with my energy regen being very close to 13.33 I think that is really all the haste that I need. Just at the point where I'm having to carefully watch my energy and Chi to make sure I'm not capping either finally. When KS, Power Strikes, and a fairly full energy bar line I'm usually racing to burn off resources which is a great feeling compared to struggling to find Chi for a PB or something.

Haven't 100% decided where I'm putting resources after 13.33 but right now I'm leaning towards Crit first.

Questions on 5.1
1) I didn't see Ascension in the patch notes, did the haste buff go live with this patch?
2) Does Power Strikes proc off any attack once the ICD is off or still have to Jab?

You know number 1

and 2... no it looks like it procs automatically. Just jumped off my mount doing nothing and I got it on my buff bar.

[Deleted]

It doesn't make any sense to go for Ascension if you don't have a huge amount of haste. Ascension becomes better the more haste you have, and it takes a very large amount of haste before it's better than Power Strikes for chi generation.

Ascension is only worth it if you value aoe damage (because of Spinning Crane Kick) and 5 maximum chi more than having extra chi. Ascension is great for WW because they get 2 chi from every jab.

[Iamgob]

It doesn't make any sense to go for Ascension if you don't have a huge amount of haste. Ascension becomes better the more haste you have, and it takes a very large amount of haste before it's better than Power Strikes for chi generation.

Ascension is only worth it if you value aoe damage (because of Spinning Crane Kick) and 5 maximum chi more than having extra chi. Ascension is great for WW because they get 2 chi from every jab.

People arent taking Ascension for the chi generation, they are doing it so they can soft cap the energy regen of 13.33 easier. It makes the need for haste much much less and lets them play around with more crit or mastery if they choose.

You are probaby missing the 5.1 spell change that also grants people who take Ascension a 15% base energy regeneration.

[SurrealNight]

It doesn't make any sense to go for Ascension if you don't have a huge amount of haste. Ascension becomes better the more haste you have, and it takes a very large amount of haste before it's better than Power Strikes for chi generation.

Has this break point been calculated? How much Haste do you need to get the same Chi/Min as Power Strikes?

People arent taking Ascension for the chi generation, they are doing it so they can soft cap the energy regen of 13.33 easier. It makes the need for haste much much less and lets them play around with more crit or mastery if they choose.

Remember that a lot of people closing in on the 13.33 spot are ALSO using Power Strikes. Taking Ascension and sticking at your current energy regen is still technically a net loss of Chi/min but can be a significant gain in other stats.

[Deleted]

Venyasure on EJ did the maths on it a few weeks ago, came up with 9787 Haste Rating at 7.5% Hit/Exp for Ascension to become better than Power Strikes in terms of raw Chi generation

http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t129790-...iscussion/p24/

[Deleted]

People arent taking Ascension for the chi generation, they are doing it so they can soft cap the energy regen of 13.33 easier. It makes the need for haste much much less and lets them play around with more crit or mastery if they choose.

You are probaby missing the 5.1 spell change that also grants people who take Ascension a 15% base energy regeneration.

That doesn't make any sense. The whole purpose of energy regeneration is chi generation. When you're switching Power Strikes to Ascension with low haste, you get less chi not more chi.

The whole idea of a soft cap, flawed as it is, is based on how much chi you can use effectively before other things become more valuable. When you drop Power Strikes, you are lowering the amount of chi available, so you'd need to adjust your soft cap to compensate. That's complicating it needlessly though. You should just compare the amount of chi you're getting from the talents, and adjusting for any minor effects like aoe damage and max chi.

Power Strikes give you 1 chi every 20 seconds, so for Ascension to equal Power Strikes you need to be getting at least 2 energy/second from it (enough for 1 jab every 20 seconds. ) That's 15% of 13,333 energy/second. So you need 13,333 energy/second before Ascension for it to give equal chi with Power Strikes.

Actually it's a little more since you'd need to adjust for your hit and expertise, as missed jabs lose 20% of the energy, so 40 energy doesn't give you 1 chi.

[SurrealNight]

We can now solve equations, by calculating the Chi gain of chps with Ascension, and compare it to the 1/20 Chi gain of Power Strikes. Here is how i got the result of 9787 with 7.5% hit/exp :

And observe how wonderful Mathematics are when you harcap : You get the same 9015 we found with your method of energy comparison.

Based on Venyasure's numbers it's cheaper to soft cap expertise and pump more haste than to spend 2500 hard capping expertise for a lower haste requirement yielding the same effective results. If you soft cap you can push your haste up to 11515 with the same rating pool available (9787+1728 haste vs 9015 haste+2500 expertise) which further boosts your Chi gen/DPS/EB, ect.

Paraalso is right I think people are forgetting that you are giving up 1Chi/20sec for Ascension.

[Chuupag]

That doesn't make any sense. The whole purpose of energy regeneration is chi generation. When you're switching Power Strikes to Ascension with low haste, you get less chi not more chi.

The whole idea of a soft cap, flawed as it is, is based on how much chi you can use effectively before other things become more valuable. When you drop Power Strikes, you are lowering the amount of chi available, so you'd need to adjust your soft cap to compensate. That's complicating it needlessly though. You should just compare the amount of chi you're getting from the talents, and adjusting for any minor effects like aoe damage and max chi.

Power Strikes give you 1 chi every 20 seconds, so for Ascension to equal Power Strikes you need to be getting at least 2 energy/second from it (enough for 1 jab every 20 seconds. ) That's 15% of 13,333 energy/second. So you need 13,333 energy/second before Ascension for it to give equal chi with Power Strikes.

Actually it's a little more since you'd need to adjust for your hit and expertise, as missed jabs lose 20% of the energy, so 40 energy doesn't give you 1 chi.

I think you are going at this in a round-a-bout way. Let's just assume that people want to get to 13.33 no matter what you take. With Power Strikes that is 8k and change, with Ascension that's 2.3k, for a difference of roughly 5k. I think you can agree that the only difference in chi production is 3 chi/min between the two. That 5k won't quite get you those 3 chi/min, but it is very close, don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but it's more than 2.5 chi/min from my napkin math. Those 5k in other stats could very well get you boatloads more crit for EB or mastery for smoother damage intake.

Also the energy from a missed jab is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Taking 7.5/7.5, you lose on average .6 energy per jab, meaning even at the exp soft cap it takes 67 jabs to actually 'lose' 1 chi from lost energy.

[seigert]

Well, after playing a little with numbers on WoWReforge.com I've got that with Ascension I can switch from haste gems to crit ones (320 Crit, 80 Agi|160 Crit, 160 Crit|Hit) and be on close to 7.5% hit|exp, slightly over 2350 haste and get additional 3.6k crit rating. Which is 6% of crit for EB.

Another solution is to modify weights at AMR and set haste weight equal to parry. But it's a shame we cannot set 'soft cap' and 'post cap weight' for haste here.

[Deleted]

I think you are going at this in a round-a-bout way. Let's just assume that people want to get to 13.33 no matter what you take. With Power Strikes that is 8k and change, with Ascension that's 2.3k, for a difference of roughly 5k. I think you can agree that the only difference in chi production is 3 chi/min between the two. That 5k won't quite get you those 3 chi/min, but it is very close, don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but it's more than 2.5 chi/min from my napkin math. Those 5k in other stats could very well get you boatloads more crit for EB or mastery for smoother damage intake.

Also the energy from a missed jab is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Taking 7.5/7.5, you lose on average .6 energy per jab, meaning even at the exp soft cap it takes 67 jabs to actually 'lose' 1 chi from lost energy.

Yes it may be worth going for crit instead of haste, but then it becomes even more important to take Power Strikes instead of Ascension. Chi is chi whether it's coming from energy or Power Strikes. It doesn't make sense to swap for a talent that gives you less chi just to reach an arbitrary energy number, when chi is the main purpose of energy regeneration.

Again, you might value the 5 maximum chi more than having extra chi, but you should be aware you are exchanging resources for convenience. If you are simply comparing 15% energy regeneration to Power Strikes, Ascension loses. You get less chi overall, and you have sacrifice single target damage by swapping Tiger Palms to Jabs to access the chi given by Ascension.

[Stelio Kontos]

Hey, I have a couple quick questions.

I'm currently the main tank for my guild. We're just getting started on 10-man normal modes. We've down The Stone Guard only.

My Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Junjie/simple

Should I up my health some more? In Ox Stance I'm at 439k unbuffed. I'm using the agi ring enchants and am picking up an agi shoulder enchant. Should I change those to the tank versions? I currently use an agi flask and sta food in raids.

Second, I have the token to get my T14 legs and shoulders, but they're both lower ilvl than my current pieces. Is the 2-pc bonus enough to compensate for the lower ilvl?

Sorry if my questions seem inane, I just want to do right by the folks I'll be trying to tank for.

[siccora]

THIS!
Desperate Measures now also resets the cooldown on Expel Harm when the Monk is below 35% health.
is so wanted this!

[Vasilisa]

Today after the patch I noticed that I no longer get "power guard". Has anything changed or this is not updated (yet) addon issue? Also is there a consensus at what haste number ascension wins over power strikes?

[Chuupag]

Yes it may be worth going for crit instead of haste, but then it becomes even more important to take Power Strikes instead of Ascension. Chi is chi whether it's coming from energy or Power Strikes. It doesn't make sense to swap for a talent that gives you less chi just to reach an arbitrary energy number, when chi is the main purpose of energy regeneration.

Again, you might value the 5 maximum chi more than having extra chi, but you should be aware you are exchanging resources for convenience. If you are simply comparing 15% energy regeneration to Power Strikes, Ascension loses. You get less chi overall, and you have sacrifice single target damage by swapping Tiger Palms to Jabs to access the chi given by Ascension.

Chi is good yes, but I think it's more complicated than just 'exchanging resources for convience.' One of the points of the 13.33 soft cap was that at a certain point those extra chi just aren't worth as much to you in terms of reducing damage taken. We're talking about 27 chi vs 30 chi in a minute. 20 chi for 100% shuffle uptime, which doesn't happen...so we'll knock it down to 18. 4 for guard. Leaving either 5 or 8 for purifying brew and level 30 talents. Most of the time you are not sacrificing purifying brew for lvl 30 talents...you would sacrifice shuffle uptime.

So you are essentially making the argument that 3 more purifying brews a minute is better than 12 seconds of extra EB per min had you thrown all 5k into crit.

Also you don't lose dps b/c haste is the worst stat for dps gain, so by putting those points in either hit, exp, or crit is a dps gain.

[Kisho]

Hey, I have a couple quick questions.

I'm currently the main tank for my guild. We're just getting started on 10-man normal modes. We've down The Stone Guard only.

My Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Junjie/simple

Should I up my health some more? In Ox Stance I'm at 439k unbuffed. I'm using the agi ring enchants and am picking up an agi shoulder enchant. Should I change those to the tank versions? I currently use an agi flask and sta food in raids.

Second, I have the token to get my T14 legs and shoulders, but they're both lower ilvl than my current pieces. Is the 2-pc bonus enough to compensate for the lower ilvl?

Sorry if my questions seem inane, I just want to do right by the folks I'll be trying to tank for.

Health isn't nearly as important for Brewmasters as it is for other classes. You will always have less HP than every other tank, it's just how we're designed.

That said, there are some boss fights where a high stam/mastery set is desired. Essentially what you'll probably want to do is make two sets: one, a general tanking set used for most boss fights, then a high stam/mastery set for tanking those bosses which need it. Examples would be Will of the Emperor, Heroic Stone Guard, Blade Lord Ta'yak, etc.

The reason for this is that while agility, haste, crit etc. reduce our damage taken (and generally speaking, we can take a lot less damage than the other tanks), it appears a lot spikier due to our relatively lower HP pools. This can cause healers to panic, make them heal more than they need to, which means the reduced damage we take is moot.

Hope that explains that. Also, 2 set bonus is super sexy: I'd take the slightly lower ilevel just to use it personally. 4 set bonus is even sexier, get that ASAP!

Today after the patch I noticed that I no longer get "power guard". Has anything changed or this is not updated (yet) addon issue? Also is there a consensus at what haste number ascension wins over power strikes?

I believe the haste 'caps' are still being discussed (you can some of this discussion in this thread). Essentially there appear to be two camps of thought:

1. Ascension affects nothing, just keep stacking haste
2. Drop haste like a bad habit to get back to 13.33 energy regen, so you can stack crit instead

And as for which is better, Power Strikes or Ascension... Eh. my gut feeling is this:

Power Strikes is technically better, but more 'RNG' ish. Ascension is a more smooth, reliable resource income, but technically less resources over time.

But this is not gospel, just my gut feeling based on what I've been reading. Check the discussion in the last couple pages of this thread and figure out what works best for you. At any rate, I'd imagine the difference between Power Strikes and Ascension to be not all that big, so personal preference can probably play a significant role here too.

I'mma going with Ascension, for what it's worth. (Probably not much :P)

Oh and the Power Guard thing: has it been rolled into the 30% ArP buff? We 'should' still be getting it, and if you aren't then that's a bug. Or addon-related woes.

[Vasilisa]

Thanks for the answer. I guess I'll stick to ascension and see how it pans out. As for Power Guard I'll check if it persists after updating addons.

[Deleted]

Chi is good yes, but I think it's more complicated than just 'exchanging resources for convience.' One of the points of the 13.33 soft cap was that at a certain point those extra chi just aren't worth as much to you in terms of reducing damage taken. We're talking about 27 chi vs 30 chi in a minute. 20 chi for 100% shuffle uptime, which doesn't happen...so we'll knock it down to 18. 4 for guard. Leaving either 5 or 8 for purifying brew and level 30 talents. Most of the time you are not sacrificing purifying brew for lvl 30 talents...you would sacrifice shuffle uptime.

So you are essentially making the argument that 3 more purifying brews a minute is better than 12 seconds of extra EB per min had you thrown all 5k into crit.

Also you don't lose dps b/c haste is the worst stat for dps gain, so by putting those points in either hit, exp, or crit is a dps gain.

Again you fail to understand.

We are comparing 2500 haste with Power Strikes to 2500 haste with Ascension. We are not making the comparison you are talking about. If you are at 2500 haste (or whatever haste rating you have that is below the number Ascension catches up with PS), then Ascension is worse than Power Strikes for chi generation, period.

The 13,33 soft cap was calculated with Power Strikes included. If you leave out Power Strikes, then you have less chi, and need to adjust your soft cap to compensate.

So with your example with Ascension you have x% crit and 27 chi with Ascension. With Power Strikes you still have x% crit and more than 27 chi available. You don't need to change anything in your gear. By switching to Power Strikes you just simply gain chi. Your crit stays the same and the amount of chi you have available increases.

It is better to be at 11.6 energy/s and Power Strikes than to be at 13,33 energy/s without Power Strikes. There's no advantage to the latter except for aoeing.