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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by anyaka21 View Post
    Yes, I get the point, however, I still think the numbers are fairly synonymous across the board. There is, overall, about a 75-80% retention loss regardless of game. And companies planning on making or releasing a major mmo need to understand this and be prepared for it.

    I actually thought there was a change in Cata where they scratched the 1-20 thing and the allowed a toon to get full leveling before they made them sub.
    You can think the numbers are synonymous across the board all you want, you'd be horribly wrong however.

    Especially since you use different methods to arrive to those numbers for different games. For one it's the amount of players it had at peak compared to numbers now, and for one you want to compare all people who at some point in time though not at the same time played to the number of players they currently have. Just so you can arrive at a similar number in order to put a positive spin on the fact SWTOR lost 80% of the players compared to their peak. But if you'd extend your methodology on WoW to SWTOR, their numbers would only get worse, and that's ignoring the fact they've had far more people The only thing companies planning to release a major MMO need to understand from this is that you need to have a game that is attractive to players.

    WoW did nothing but grow for years, SWTOR did nothing but shrink drastically to a fraction of the initial playerbase within half a year, hate to break it to you but there's NOTHING synonymous in those situations. This is like when people where trying to push the lie that the WoW playerbase shrank by over 50% in the first year to make SWTORs shrinkage seem natural, according to plan and even a sign of how great the game was doing because WoW had done it too.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Zokonorb View Post
    You can think the numbers are synonymous across the board all you want, you'd be horribly wrong however.
    You just aren't getting what he is saying.

    I will attempted to rephrase it in a most positive spin mode.

    WoW has had 20 times more people try their game than swtor.
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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    You just aren't getting what he is saying.

    I will attempted to rephrase it in a most positive spin mode.

    WoW has had 20 times more people try their game than swtor.
    And again, we need to add to this basic factual information that Blizzard has license agreements in other countries that allow them the rights to the game. Using China as the simple example. Over 50% of WoW population comes from there for basically a set amount of money on that licensing in fee. Or the simple, and again, as I've used this information that seems to be lost on Zokonorb that around 60% of WoW population comes from China and that accounts for about 6% of their income. Thus the NA/EU region probably sits around 4 million and accounts for 94% of their income.

    Thus, just based on that information alone should change the weight of and scope of the arguement. We shouldn't be comparing SWTOR to all of the entirety of WoW, it's just not a fair comparison as SWTOR doesn't have a license agreement in China. Take that 6million number out of the equation completely. Thus compare the NA/EU population of around 4million to SWTOR population. It's just a more honest comparison.

  4. #184
    It's just a more honest comparison.
    The whole "Asians don't count as players because they have a different pay scheme" thing is nothing but a borderline racist red herring. It's not a more honest comparison, it's just you trying to discount an entire group of people to suit your own agenda based on new parameters that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic under discussion, ie, subscriber retention.

    But then, all you've done this whole discussion is try to spin numbers and compare apples to oranges, so it's not really surprising that you would try this.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    The whole "Asians don't count as players because they have a different pay scheme" thing is nothing but a borderline racist red herring. It's not a more honest comparison, it's just you trying to discount an entire group of people to suit your own agenda based on new parameters that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic under discussion, ie, subscriber retention.

    But then, all you've done this whole discussion is try to spin numbers and compare apples to oranges, so it's not really surprising that you would try this.
    No one is saying they aren't players. They aren't subscribers because they use a different payment model, PPH. Its like how we don't call F2Pers subscribers. Different payment model.
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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    The whole "Asians don't count as players because they have a different pay scheme" thing is nothing but a borderline racist red herring. It's not a more honest comparison, it's just you trying to discount an entire group of people to suit your own agenda based on new parameters that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic under discussion, ie, subscriber retention.

    But then, all you've done this whole discussion is try to spin numbers and compare apples to oranges, so it's not really surprising that you would try this.
    Seriously? You're trying to make this a racist comparison? Really?

    No, it's just a simple FACT that SWTOR is NOT available in China. End of Story. Therefore trying to count WoW's subs or pay by the minute subscribers in China to a sub base that's not even available in that country shouldn't count. That is all.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by anyaka21 View Post
    Seriously? You're trying to make this a racist comparison? Really?

    No, it's just a simple FACT that SWTOR is NOT available in China. End of Story. Therefore trying to count WoW's subs or pay by the minute subscribers in China to a sub base that's not even available in that country shouldn't count. That is all.
    Availability has nothing to do with it. There is nothing preventing BioWare and EA from making TOR available in China; they simply have chosen not to do so at this point.

    WoW's Chinese players pay to play, therefore they count as subscribers. Arguing otherwise is nothing more than trying to arbitrarily ignore the existence of an entire group of people just so you can make the numbers slightly more favorable to your own viewpoint.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    WoW's Chinese players pay to play, therefore they count as subscribers. Arguing otherwise is nothing more than trying to arbitrarily ignore the existence of an entire group of people just so you can make the numbers slightly more favorable to your own viewpoint.
    Um. There are many pay to play models. Pay per hour is different than a reoccurring subscription.
    How do you not see that?
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Um. There are many pay to play models. Pay per hour is different than a reoccurring subscription.
    How do you not see that?
    Completely irrelevant.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    Completely irrelevant.
    Alright, then if we are going to call two different models "subscribers" than I guess we can say league of legends has 35 million subscribers.
    All Swtors f2p accounts are subscribers now too.
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbtk View Post
    So like many others, I was absolutely stoked for SWTOR. Couldn't stop watching beta videos and looking for leaks. Fast forward a few weeks, the game was dying on me, hard. I was playing with 4 RL friends, and we all quit within the first month. We were pretty shocked at how fast the subs were plummeting, and not even a year into release it goes F2P.

    I haven't looked at SWTOR since Janauary, how is the PVP/PVE in the game as of now? Right as I quit is when Ilum or w/e was an absolute joke, where Republic wasn't getting anything done in there.

    -Which classes are currently performing the best/worst in PVP?
    -How is the gearing process for PVP? Does it take a long time?
    -How friendly is the game for New Players? Is it like Warhammer where max RR would obliterate you instantly?
    -Is there any form of competitive PVP in swtor? Hopefully not like World of Failcraft's current burst fiasco...sorry backspace is broken, meant Failcraft. Dangit!, Warcraft**
    SWTOR>WoW all day
    "Do you think man will ever walk on the sun? -Ali G

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Alright, then if we are going to call two different models "subscribers" than I guess we can say league of legends has 35 million subscribers.
    All Swtors f2p accounts are subscribers now too.
    That doesn't work. You don't have to pay to play LoL. You have to pay to play WoW, no matter where you play from.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    That doesn't work. You don't have to pay to play LoL. You have to pay to play WoW, no matter where you play from.
    If paying is the requirement than all preferred status players are subscribers because they paid 5 or more dollars.
    And if players pay once in league, would they then be subscribers?

    Because the PPH accounts could buy a 30 hour card and log in twice a year and be considered a "subscriber" under Coopers definition.
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
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  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    If paying is the requirement than all preferred status players are subscribers because they paid 5 or more dollars.
    And if players pay once in league, would they then be subscribers?

    Because the PPH accounts could buy a 30 hour card and log in twice a year and be considered a "subscriber" under Coopers definition.
    I don't know how they track "active" accounts or not, but you can't discount millions of people because, "They pay differently than we do and I don't know how it's all tracked."

    It wouldn't be the first time a company stretched the definition of "subscriber" though, so while I don't like how the term is thrown around with loose meaning to begin with, this is still within the realm of what a "subscriber" is considered.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    I don't know how they track "active" accounts or not, but you can't discount millions of people because, "They pay differently than we do and I don't know how it's all tracked."

    It wouldn't be the first time a company stretched the definition of "subscriber" though, so while I don't like how the term is thrown around with loose meaning to begin with, this is still within the realm of what a "subscriber" is considered.
    I have not done that.

    I am very clear that they are players. Not subscribers. Players.

    From what I've read on these boards and else where is that activity for PPH is logging in "in the past 6 months" of the time of the report. You could essentially use a 30 hour card to be counted as a player for years.

    I take issue with statements like "8 million subscribers" because its mixing terms to give an inaccurate picture.
    The push back against looking at the data as about 4 million subscribers and 4 million PPH is, to me, a sign that it is an intentional warping of the data.
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  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I have not done that.

    I am very clear that they are players. Not subscribers. Players.
    You have done that. You're doing it in this very quote. "I don't discount them, I just put them in a different category that doesn't count."

    From what I've read on these boards and else where is that activity for PPH is logging in "in the past 6 months" of the time of the report. You could essentially use a 30 hour card to be counted as a player for years.
    Pure conjecture based on hearsay, and an unrealistic example.

    I take issue with statements like "8 million subscribers" because its mixing terms to give an inaccurate picture.
    The push back against looking at the data as about 4 million subscribers and 4 million PPH is, to me, a sign that it is an intentional warping of the data.
    The only people who "push back" are those who want their particular game's numbers to look better when compared to World of Warcraft's.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    You have done that. You're doing it in this very quote. "I don't discount them, I just put them in a different category that doesn't count."
    If you are going to claim that that's a quote from me, you should actually quote me because you are terrible are paraphrasing.

    Which again, feeds into this intentional misrepresentation of the truth.
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  18. #198
    One year later, still no Dual Spec, so my healing sorcerer is locked into raid mode because of the cost to respec to go damage is too prohibitive.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Striph View Post
    One year later, still no Dual Spec, so my healing sorcerer is locked into raid mode because of the cost to respec to go damage is too prohibitive.
    Respec fees are waved for subscribers.
    (Warframe) - Dragon & Typhoon-
    (Neverwinter) - Trickster Rogue & Guardian Fighter -

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    If you are going to claim that that's a quote from me, you should actually quote me because you are terrible are paraphrasing.

    Which again, feeds into this intentional misrepresentation of the truth.
    I did quote you.

    You have to be one of the most self-deluded people I have ever seen post on a forum.

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