5.2 Monk's only hope

[Asmalya]

I just hope they dont touch the gameplay itself.
I really love how brewmaster works and it just needs small adjustment. Knowing blizzard i fear they just change everything completly -.-

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 12:09 PM ----------

- ox stance: 50% expertise from dodge and parry

No..just no. I dont want to use dodge or parry...iam happy BrM work with crit and haste and master to an extend..no need to start mixing dodge and parry into. I already hate our t14 shoulders for that reason.

[Schaden]

Brewmasters: Honestly, the BrM tool kit needs to be expanded. The spec feels gimmicky and very niche and lacking the tools needed to put them on par with other tanks, particularly prot warriors and paladins. The only reason you're seeing Brewmasters in cutting edge progression is to cheese Black Ox Statue (which I know is going to get nerfed) and the 4pc bonus. Not because we're good, competitive tanks, but so that we can sit in Tiger Stance and spam guard on the raid. I will gladly trade high dps (as someone earlier mentioned) for a more robust tool kit. A short term, 1min CD. Protection against stuns. Breath of Fire having an actual place in our rotation. There's a lot of ways it can go. But I don't think that expanding Avert Harm's radius is the magic bullet. This is strictly personal opinion, but I think that a major damage reduction cool down for the raid that damages the tank is a bit dangerous. I mean, you're already popping it during high-damage moments, do you want a tank taking that damage plus a chunk of the raid's damage too? Even with stagger, it feels like playing with fire.

Windwalkers: Mastery is boring and undesirable and conflicts with haste. Doubt it will be reworked this deep into the expansion, but still. The spec needs a burst cooldown, like maybe pressing a button and getting a full ten stack of Tigerseye Brew or something else. It feels really frustrating to start a fight and see other classes blaze ahead of me because they pop all their CDs. Granted, I can catch up over the course of the fight, but as gear improves and fights shorten because of better dps, the chance to make up the difference will decrease and the the gap they gain with the initial burst will widen. Its sort of frustrating to have the raid blow Bloodlust at the start of a fight because "everyone's CDs are up then" and know that by the time its over you'll finally be close to having a decent stack of TeB. Also a tier that isn't a shitshow for melee, but thats not a problem limited to monks.

Also: fixing Xuen on Garalon, plz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtSzn4GoZ-A

[DirewolfX]

I hope ur talking in general. Cuz healers ARE and WERE OP.. all the top healers on all of the bosses mainly are monks. Tanks, seem to be very good aswell from my experiance, the only really underpowered one is the dps class. (all this in PvE) .. im not talking about PvP.

That was a week ago, before we got nerfed to the ground (literally). We're now on track to be the worst healers, if the raidbot trends continue. Dipped below shamans on 25H yesterday... we'll know by Sunday-ish if we're going to drop below druids, too.

[Teevo]

- Energy regen should be reduced, and the damage of our skills increased to compensate. I'm not saying by a lot, maybe 5-10% would be enough. This would smooth things out while still maintaining the feel of the spec.

Long as this is exclusive to WW, I've no problems with it. I like my energy regen as a brewmaster though.

[George Costanza]

I would just like for us to be able to use all stance in all speccs, just speccs mattering (that said make some of our abilities baseline keg smash and some healing target for the normal monk would make us able to switch easier between tanking, dpsing and healing, so it won't have to be... "Oh wait i must go and spend gold to do that".

[Smashpanda]

I feel I can safely contribute to this post in regards to ww monks considering the amount of exclusive time I've spent on the spec.

I feel ww monks in 5.1 are amazing and quality of life changes have made us very powerful, I don't think we need much change as we do quite well as it is, I'm all for being over power and dominate but that will never last long so why not make the right decisions first.

Blizzard stated they made a big mistake with DKs, they were very powerful and claimed this was because they are a "Hero Class", the fact is they were inexperienced when it came to introducing a new class to wow, now with monks they've done a full 360 and went a little to far in the opposite direction to how DKs were, but this was completely intended as buffing classes up in future patches versus nerfing them tends to be accepted by us as players.

One thing we need to realise about Blizzard and their balancing act with pvp is they tend to use hard data, that means a long term collective effort to gather data, watching, listening and drawing very clear hard data driven decisions. Give Blizzard time and they will make the right decisions.

Issue one: "We have crap gap closers" or "our gap closers aren't targetable"
If you understand your abilities correctly and use them appropriately you can close the gap very easily, so what our gap closers aren't target-able, you can perceive this as "easy to counter" or "difficult to master", I like to think it's "hard to master" because once you do our gap closers become far greater than a target-able version not to mention added utility.

Issue two: "WE NEED SOME BURST YO"
Blizzard hate burst, they built monks without it for that specific reason, but we certainly lack variety when it comes to damage, I'd much rather see some kind of change helps us give controlled burst such as changing mastery to gain a secondary effect "when your energy full your crit chance is increased by 50%", that way if we wish to burst we need to set it up (as in gain full chi, wait for energy, pop cds then use chi), instead of mashing a button and blowing someone up immediately OP DERP STYLE.

Issue Three: "Our defensives suckkkkkkkkkkkkk"
No they don't, they're actually very powerful, TOK is underated, diffuse magic could last a bit longer, our silences disarms are top tier stuff in comparison to rogues/warriors.

Issue Four: "We're fragile, weak, squishy targets"
Yes we are, we're not tanks but we traded this in for mobility and healing.

Issue Five: "We're too susceptible to cc"
This I 100% agree with, chaining stuns or fears on monks completely locks us out and we have nothing to really counter from this, especially fears are particularly difficult, we need changes made so we can use certain abilities while feared/stunned like Barkskin, perhaps able to use diffuse magic and reflect fear back to the caster, giving us an opportunity to get back on them but at the very least breaking or reducing damage while cc'd is where we need help with.

Just my 2 cents!

[TheWindWalker]

Issue Four: "We're fragile, weak, squishy targets"
Yes we are, we're not tanks but we traded this in for mobility and healing.

I'm confused what you mean by this. Brewmasters have even greater self-healing than Windwalkers. Not that we need a huge boost to self-healing but just saying, we didn't "trade being tank spec for healing" when our tank spec has better healing than this.

[Smashpanda]

I'm confused what you mean by this. Brewmasters have even greater self-healing than Windwalkers. Not that we need a huge boost to self-healing but just saying, we didn't "trade being tank spec for healing" when our tank spec has better healing than this.

My comments are directed exclusively to windwalkers, not Brewmasters.

What I mean is, while we lack in being tanky as windwalkers, we gain in other areas, we are leather wearers and they tend to be squishy, this is the very nature of a leather wearer.

[TheWindWalker]

What I mean is, while we lack in being tanky as windwalkers, we gain in other areas, we are leather wearers and they tend to be squishy, this is the very nature of a leather wearer.

Rogues and Feral Druids are also leather wearers and thus also squishy, that's not really the point here. My point was that you said:

Yes we are, we're not tanks but we traded this in for mobility and healing.

When we choose Windwalker instead of our tank spec, we're trading in our defense and part of our healing for mobility and sustainable higher damage.

[thelordymir]

Issue one: "We have crap gap closers" or "our gap closers aren't targetable"

We can be CC'd during our gap closers, AND with server and pvp latency they are garbage.

Issue two: "WE NEED SOME BURST YO"
Blizzard hate burst,

They hate burst, yet the ENTIRE pvp game is build around burst right now and every class has a much better form then us.

Issue Three: "Our defensives suckkkkkkkkkkkkk"
No they don't, they're actually very powerful, TOK is underated, diffuse magic could last a bit longer, our silences disarms are top tier stuff in comparison to rogues/warriors.

TOK can be trained through because it double dips on resi in pvp, diffuse magic doesn't stop CC, zen meditation breaks on a single melee hit. I would say our CDs are almost as bad as DKs, at least our Fort Brew is better then IBF, but it doesnt break stuns and stuns are our MAJOR weakness.

we are leather wearers and they tend to be squishy, this is the very nature of a leather wearer.

Tell rogues and ferals this. Rogues still have far more defensive cds and abilities to get away, and ferals have much better burst and dmg then we do (though their super bear form got nerfed this expansion thank god)


All in all, WW monk is terrible for pvp right now. It's fun in random BGs and such, but any arena team or RBG team will bench you for another dps with burst and raid cooldowns in a heartbeat.

[Valium104]

Unjustified hotfixes? Look at worldoflogs, monks are topping everything with disc priests. Brewmaster is fine and WW can do 100k+ dps which is suitable for every encounter.

[Deleted]

Unjustified hotfixes? Look at worldoflogs, monks are topping everything with disc priests. Brewmaster is fine and WW can do 100k+ dps which is suitable for every encounter.

Actually its not for every encounter, only some encounters like Tsulong and Garalon for example.

[Ryanlol]

I like Windwalker. My only hope for 5.2 is that someone pulls their head out of their ass and gives Windwalker a new Mastery, or takes Jab off the GCD. That would work too.

[Mavian]

I like Windwalker. My only hope for 5.2 is that someone pulls their head out of their ass and gives Windwalker a new Mastery, or takes Jab off the GCD. That would work too.

Honestly just taking the Mastery procs off the GCD would probably fixes WW mastery to a salvageable point. Or make it proc a free RSK. The concept is decent, implementation was disastrous. With the change to TP, it makes almost any TP mastery proc useless unless you're sub-5 seconds on the buff.

But right now, there needs to be no nerfs to WW energy regen. The Ascension change is the only thing keep WW afloat. Pre-5.1, most monks we energy starving at 7k+ haste and EB on CD. The main thing is most DPS classes have a serviceable mastery, WW is barely passable. As I said above, most WW monks know now to ignore TP mastery procs almost entirely. Making DPS stats that conflict with each other was terrible design and someone should be demoted for not being able to sim numbers the community put together within days.

[George Costanza]

Cory stockton was talking about making FoF usable while moving didn't he?

[Torunscar]

That was a week ago, before we got nerfed to the ground (literally). We're now on track to be the worst healers, if the raidbot trends continue. Dipped below shamans on 25H yesterday... we'll know by Sunday-ish if we're going to drop below druids, too.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Seriously though, Monk healing numbers are fine. We do however lack a really compelling raid cooldown, I'd love to see Zen Meditation reworked to something like a Death Knights AMZ but maybe physical damage only, I dunno.

[TheWindWalker]

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Seriously though, Monk healing numbers are fine. We do however lack a really compelling raid cooldown, I'd love to see Zen Meditation reworked to something like a Death Knights AMZ but maybe physical damage only, I dunno.

What you're doing is the same thing only on the polar opposite side. You're looking at people upset about something bad happening and saying "Nothing bad happens!" This isn't "The sky is falling!" It's "we have suffered severe cutbacks in our ability to perform our major roll with minimal support for abilities outside our major roll causing other, previously lacking, classes to bypass us as we find ourselves less and less useful."

[Torunscar]

"we have suffered severe cutbacks in our ability to perform our major roll with minimal support for abilities outside our major roll causing other, previously lacking, classes to bypass us as we find ourselves less and less useful."

I felt the cutbacks as much as anyone. Initially I was pissed about it, but I had to adapt my play-style and re-think a lot of my talent options and my role for certain fights. Our role has changed. It's not just blanket burst healing the entire raid for every encounter. It's more about weaving in a lot more single target heals with Surging and Enveloping in between our AOE healing which is more situational than it was.

I do actually agree somewhat with you and the many disappointed Monks in this forum, hence my remark about some added utility. If we're not blowing the top off the meters there needs to be a compelling reason to bring a Mistweaver to the raid. I was simply just saying that in my opinion the numbers are fine.

As for the mana changes, it may have been a bit heavy handed. But it's closer to where it needs to be than previously. Instead of finishing progression fights with 50-60% mana its more like 0-15% mana.

[Deleted]

>Death Cocoon
>Glyphable SFB- Roots but does no damage.
>FoF usable while moving.

This will "fix" windwalker pvp imo.

PvE > On demand Tigereye Brew with long cooldown for lust bursting.
Also movable FoF.

I'd be perfectly happy if that's all they ever buff us to have.