If we would...

[judgementofantonidas]

Well, then you didn't scout out that person correctly, but you need to keep open for other players to evolve. And well, maybe he/she/it felt like the content has been completed for he/she/it. Even a PvP can tell a Heroic raider that he didn't complete the content as he hasn't done enough PvP (still content).

But gear is helping you to build a chance, no matter what people think. Most guilds would rather have an LFR geared person on trial for raids than a rare geared. You cannot deny the progress needs "stairs", LFR is another step on the stair, just like normal is.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 08:09 PM ----------



But, that's wrong too. Still alot of content. Factions, Player Versus Player and achievements - heck, even lore as well as roleplay.

www.guildox.com
www.guildprogress.com

dont see Dream-Paragon ranked as the top world PVP guild. end of discussion

[Badee]

I never understand why some determine the small population of players who actually do end game raiding are the only ones entitled to gear, mounts, cheves, ect. Casual players are the majority and majority rules. You wont ever see LFR as anything other than a easy way for busy people to get gear.

[judgementofantonidas]

I'm new and I'm going to get flamed for this I'm sure, but I run LFR because I'm deaf. I don't get to hop on vent and run around while people yell at each other about staying in the fire. So there's a penalty for players like me in the highest of raiding, but the penalty for my deafness is blunted by gimped boss mechanics (these mechanics are tuned for groups who can freely communicate--- most often verbally, because nobody can type that fast and mash ability buttons).

So yeah I get some gear for my toons that I otherwise wouldn't get because no "hardcore" raid group would let a deaf player into the raid since I can't hop on vent. Well I can hop on vent, but I can't hear ya anyways.

I've made some friends through wow that have other types of disabilities and it's a nice retreat from some of the crap we deal with everyday in real life (I'm sure many players of all abilities can relate to this). So go ahead and flame away and tell me that I'm not as good as of a player because at the end of the day no matter how loud you're yelling at me... I can't hear ya.

we had a deaf player during wrath. he eventually cleared the normal mode content with us.

some very advanced players play with no sound on at all.
yes, it was frustrating to not get yelled back at when he stood in stuff, but no it is not impossible and you should not let your handicap limit you to LFR.

[Daedius]

Use your head...

Why the hell would anyone want to waste their time doing it if they get nothing out of it --- do you think people right now do LFR when they've already got themself saved downing all bosses already? No? Yeah, I wonder why...

The benefit of LFR is you don't have to commit yourself to a guild, raiding at set times...

[Hodenkrieg]

www.guildox.com
www.guildprogress.com

dont see Dream-Paragon ranked as the top world PVP guild. end of discussion

you are being incredibly closed-minded for someone who claimed 2 pages ago that other people weren't using solid facts or opinions.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/2v2/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/guild/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/battleground/

[TheWindWalker]

--snip--

That was honestly a good read. Yeah, you're kind of screwed with any guild that doesn't specifically want to tailor to your specific situation. The only thing I think you could consistently do in total silence is tank. (If on two-tank fights the other tank macro'd some default /whisper statements. "Taunt!" "Trade with me!" "Get adds!" etc.) That's one of the reasons I love the mini-map ping when I can't be heard in vent because people are talking or my voice is drowned out.

[MoanaLisa]

The unstated premise of the OP is that LFR isn't raiding and therefore isn't worthy of having any reward. Quite apart from the nonsense idea that loot would ever be removed from LFR, the premise doesn't bear any relationship to the reality as defined by Blizzard. Blizzard considers it entry-level raiding, provides what they perceive to be appropriate rewards for success, and most importantly for them, it's been good business for their game. At this point in time Osmeric's observation that removing normal/heroic modes would cause less of a stir has some validity.

So I don't understand the point of the thread to be perfectly honest because none of this is even the least bit likely.

I'll conclude with what I always say in threads like this: LFR is here, it's not going away, and Blizzard isn't about to do anything to cripple its popularity. Get used to that fact and look for other ways to 'improve' the game.

[judgementofantonidas]

you are being incredibly closed-minded for someone who claimed 2 pages ago that other people weren't using solid facts or opinions.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/2v2/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/guild/
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/battleground/

again. you are posting just to be arguementative and basing your findings on a narrow segement of the population. there are not mmo-champion articles with interviews of the guild that beat up this other guild on a weekly basis. it just isn't the main goal of the game. The main goal of the game is defeating the particular bad guy of each expansion. or else the staring player on the front of every world of warcraft based fan site would be predominantly the unimportant things you just posted.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 02:30 PM ----------

That was honestly a good read. Yeah, you're kind of screwed with any guild that doesn't specifically want to tailor to your specific situation. The only thing I think you could consistently do in total silence is tank. (If on two-tank fights the other tank macro'd some default /whisper statements. "Taunt!" "Trade with me!" "Get adds!" etc.) That's one of the reasons I love the mini-map ping when I can't be heard in vent because people are talking or my voice is drowned out.

dbm is quite clear with visual as well AS WELL AS audio ques for when things need to happen.

[Djuntas]

But by removing the gear from LFR, you will be strangling the raiding community and stopping it from growing. One need the best gear one can get to be considered joining normals now a days. I mean, if gear was to be removed, then the amount of raiders will fall due to people find something else than raids and such. You need the LFR gear so you have a chance of becoming a real raider.

And now main question? Why would you care about LFR gear when normal/HC gear is better?

Looking for raid devalues real raiders effort, be it the 2-3 weeks normal raider that will just clear normal modes, and never try hard-modes, or the Semi/hardcore 4-5 days a week hard-mode raider. LFR gives to much for what you put into it. Not only do you see the content, witch is a huge thing (MMO's should be about the journey, scenery and exploring to) if you ask me, but you also get really easy gear thats actually very good for no work.


Edit: But maybe I think like this cause inn TBC I didn't raid to much, yet I was still happy with what content I got to see. The journey, not the end. Many people were happy with what you had inn TBC. LFR makes a generation of bad raiders, and forces likely good raiders, and great raiders to do something they dont even want to.

[Bigbamboozal]

But won't the people running LFR see that they get to see content, then prepare to raid normals. I don't say to join a hardcore guild and go pro 5 times a week, maybe a casual guild raiding 1-2 days per week clearing normal modes and progress at their own pace?

People should be inspired to move beyond LFR.

Yah I don't think I can agree with you.
For me, I lfr mostly, due to growing up a bit, having a bit of a life, some commitments, like a job, child, missus...you know, all that shit that happens right outside your apartment door that I'm starting to think you've not realized yet in life....

Yup, I'm a 'casual' player now. Not in spirit, but in time constraints and ability to commit to late night raids.
It's not easy to find 9 others who can match my time frame to play.
And as for the inspired part?
lmfao, hey bub, we did hc 25's from tbc through to firelands. I think it's ok to grow up, have a life, and still play some wow and get some not as awesome gears as you get in normals and hc's.
I thought that when I was doing HC's, and if you don't, it sort of screams snowflake-butthurt-sandwich, with a side of real raiders have timestamps, and timestamps are enough.

The best part? I'd bet my account you have gone to LFR, and had hope and wish that gear would drop for you, and I bet you even cheered if it did, and cursed your luck when it didn't.

[Aquamonkey]

LFR directly benefits "real" raiders. You know all those heroics you do to cap VP? Imagine how much worse those would be without people in LFR gear.

[Hodenkrieg]

again. you are posting just to be arguementative and basing your findings on a narrow segement of the population. there are not mmo-champion articles with interviews of the guild that beat up this other guild on a weekly basis. it just isn't the main goal of the game. The main goal of the game is defeating the particular bad guy of each expansion. or else the staring player on the front of every world of warcraft based fan site would be predominantly the unimportant things you just posted.

and sadly once again you are making the assumption that your opinion is the only one that matters.

While WoWProgress or MMO-Champion may be very popular sites, the point of the game is still subjective to the person you speak with. Just because you can link to a site that ranks guilds based on PVE content cleared, does not nullify a second site that ranks guilds based on PvP rank acquired.

There is more to WoW than what you find valid.
What you find to be the purpose of the game does not mean everyone who does what you think is wrong is walking into a wall.

[Kantoro]

and sadly once again you are making the assumption that your opinion is the only one that matters.

While WoWProgress or MMO-Champion may be very popular sites, the point of the game is still subjective to the person you speak with. Just because you can link to a site that ranks guilds based on PVE content cleared, does not nullify a second site that ranks guilds based on PvP rank acquired.

There is more to WoW than what you find valid.
What you find to be the purpose of the game does not mean everyone who does what you think is wrong is walking into a wall.

/thread

I agree completely.

[Osmeric]

Looking for raid devalues real raiders effort

LFR is the only reason they're allowing normal mode raids to be as difficult as they currently are. If you like current normal/heroic raid tuning, get down on your knees and grovel in humble thankfulness that LFR was included.

And pray that enough people actually want to do normal/heroic raids at the current difficulty level to justify their inclusion.

[Nathane]

How about we expand the experiment and remove loot from all three and see how many hardcores stick around. After all they're in it for the challenge and not the loot.

People like myself doing heroic modes need the gear. Some fights are not possible without a certain ilevel.

[dryankem]

and on another asside. we run multiple groups for all skill levels in my guild. yes, even people who cannot tell right from left with colored shoe laces. The progression group now takes one player from guild and clears MSV with them weekly our first day of raiding taking roughly two hours. so the statements about not having time to be in a dedicated raiding guild really tend to fall on deaf ears with me considering if our players are patient, support the guild in THIER way, they get to COMPLETE the content in THIER alloted time span. This is much more than they would accomplish in a solo, these have been my friends forever, or I don't have the time capacity.

Its not time. I easily play enough to be raiding 2/3 nights a week. Its desire. I don't want to schedule my time (ie Thursday at 10) around a video game. I like to queue up when I have time, run a dungeon or lfr and then bail. Don't want to be at the same boss for hours just because it's boring.

[Badee]

Looking for raid devalues real raiders effort, be it the 2-3 weeks normal raider that will just clear normal modes, and never try hard-modes, or the Semi/hardcore 4-5 days a week hard-mode raider. LFR gives to much for what you put into it. Not only do you see the content, witch is a huge thing (MMO's should be about the journey, scenery and exploring to) if you ask me, but you also get really easy gear thats actually very good for no work.


Edit: But maybe I think like this cause inn TBC I didn't raid to much, yet I was still happy with what content I got to see. The journey, not the end. Many people were happy with what you had inn TBC. LFR makes a generation of bad raiders, and forces likely good raiders, and great raiders to do something they dont even want to.

Sounds like you are trying to portray an elitist raider who is very jealous of the casual player. Anyone who has ever raided knows you have to put in triple the effort or more to get the tiny item level upgrades that sets hardcore endgame raiders apart from the casual players. Your signature displays a character with a lower item level than 6 of my alts..(I am the Queen of casual players as I retired from hardcore raiding years ago). You should update your sig or have a real raider do your posting

[Nathane]

Sounds like you are trying to portray an elitist raider who is very jealous of the casual player. Anyone who has ever raided knows you have to put in triple the effort or more to get the tiny item level upgrades that sets hardcore endgame raiders apart from the casual players. Your signature displays a character with a lower item level than 6 of my alts..(I am the Queen of casual players as I retired from hardcore raiding years ago). You should update your sig or have a real raider do your posting

His sig doesn't link anywhere?

[Deleted]

Perhaps you aren't aware, people in LFR are the vast majority of the 'raiders'... its those dollars that they invest in Warcraft that ALLOW the development of raids, the content you so preciously covet. Do you truly think that if LFR didn't exist that you'd have 5 raids and 16 bosses to kill in MOP? If you do, then you are delusional.

Awesome and massive raids have existed way before LFR. Your argument is invalid.

[Badee]

His sig doesn't link anywhere?

so it's broken too! Trolls usually link to nowhere to hide from the masses