The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[Promdates]

This trinket talk made me check the value of the 3 major trinkets (Xuen, Bottle, Terror) that we use. Using my stat weights from the spreadsheet over at EJ, and using ((StatWeight*StaticStat)+(ProcStat*StatWeight*(ProcDuration/ProcICD))) for trinket procs, you get the follow lists.

H: Terror in the Mists 2/2	        3252.81939474286
H: Terror in the Mists 1/2	        3134.15812547143
H: Terror in the Mists 0/2	        3020.14418234286
Terror in the Mists 2/2	                2883.20251375714
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	        2819.12284333333
Terror in the Mists 1/2	                2778.17431765714
Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	        2776.41966683333
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	        2716.24808663333
Relic of Xuen 2/2	                2679.47191660909
Terror in the Mists 0/2      	        2676.24204777143
Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	        2674.97790263333
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	        2617.09852273333
Relic of Xuen 1/2	                2582.44757686364
Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	        2577.26133123333
LFR: Terror in the Mists 2/2	        2554.94821017143
Relic of Xuen 0/2          	        2488.72511255455
LFR: Terror in the Mists 1/2	        2462.00168731429
LFR: Terror in the Mists 0/2	        2371.68773278571
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2211.5215521
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2130.75960986667
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2053.38859346667

If I reforge the Bottles to Haste:

H: Terror in the Mists 2/2	        3252.81939474286
H: Terror in the Mists 1/2	        3134.15812547143
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	        3094.36868833333
Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	        3020.20884383333
H: Terror in the Mists 0/2	        3020.14418234286
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	        2981.53265343333
Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	        2909.85435703333
Terror in the Mists 2/2	                2883.20251375714
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	        2872.42181133333
Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	        2803.22506303333
Terror in the Mists 1/2	                2778.17431765714
Relic of Xuen 2/2	                2679.47191660909
Terror in the Mists 0/2	                2676.24204777143
Relic of Xuen 1/2	                2582.44757686364
LFR: Terror in the Mists 2/2	        2554.94821017143
Relic of Xuen 0/2	                2488.72511255455
LFR: Terror in the Mists 1/2	        2462.00168731429
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2427.5240057
LFR: Terror in the Mists 0/2	        2371.68773278571
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2338.89789646667
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2253.66271306667

Reforge Bottles to Crit:

H: Terror in the Mists 2/2	        3252.81939474286
H: Terror in the Mists 1/2	        3134.15812547143
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	        3076.82208583333
H: Terror in the Mists 0/2	        3020.14418234286
Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	        3004.66756733333
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	        2964.62107083333
Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	        2894.88125623333
Terror in the Mists 2/2	                2883.20251375714
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	        2856.14524863333
Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	        2788.82013793333
Terror in the Mists 1/2	                2778.17431765714
Relic of Xuen 2/2	                2679.47191660909
Terror in the Mists 0/2	                2676.24204777143
Relic of Xuen 1/2	                2582.44757686364
LFR: Terror in the Mists 2/2	        2554.94821017143
Relic of Xuen 0/2	                2488.72511255455
LFR: Terror in the Mists 1/2	        2462.00168731429
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2413.7541005
LFR: Terror in the Mists 0/2	        2371.68773278571
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2325.62932276667
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2240.89547086667

Granted, the sheet shows my crit being a higher weight than my haste, due to haste being above 6100 and crit below 5k.

[Wreckage827]

Personal preference IMO (getting to sound like a broken record now...).

Trinkets are two of the most inter-changeable item slots we have, I think. We should be changing them on a per-boss basis, depending on what we need. More stam? More agi? More crit? More mastery (lol)?

There are only a couple of Heroic 10 man fights I am even considering the notion of swapping my trinkets for anything else. Heroic Grand Empress and Heroic Sha of Fear. None of the other fights have even pushed me into the notion of swapping to full mastery or Stam. Maybe my healers are just badasses.

[Otora]

I just got the sha touched fist weapon from Empress and I have the LFR Garakal, Fist of the Spiritbinder (Garajal weapon). I currently have the Sha touched gem and I'm using the polearm from Spirit Kings. I was wondering if it would be worth it to wait for the Sha touched weapon from Tsulong. Any opinions are appreciated.

[The Madgod]

I just got the sha touched fist weapon from Empress and I have the LFR Garakal, Fist of the Spiritbinder (Garajal weapon). I currently have the Sha touched gem and I'm using the polearm from Spirit Kings. I was wondering if it would be worth it to wait for the Sha touched weapon from Tsulong. Any opinions are appreciated.

if the Empress weapon is normal, use that in the main hand, LFR Garakal in the offhand, and put in the gem. If not, wait for a normal Empress weapon.

The Tsulong 2h is worse than the Empress 1h, technically speaking, assuming you have an okay offhand weapon.

[Chuupag]

With regards to the trinket wall of text (don't want to quote it to spare you all it again) I think your assumption in the math ((StatWeight*StaticStat)+(ProcStat*StatWeight*(ProcDuration/ProcICD))) is a bit flawed in that the proc will not come back immediately at the conclusion of its icd. Terror has a 15% chance to proc and a 105 sec icd...so it most likely will proc every 120 seconds or so. There is math to plot the average...but suffice to say you can't have perfect uptime on them. This would of course chance the weighted numbers you provided.

[Promdates]

Even if you adjusted the ICD, it's still better.

[Ragethorn]

I guess I'll hold off on upgrading my Xuen trinket then. Of course, at the rate our raid team is going, it might be a while before I ever see the 496 Terror.

[Chuupag]

Even if you adjusted the ICD, it's still better.

Can you humor me and do the math and show your work.

[Promdates]

No reforge

H: Terror in the Mists 2/2	3090.682748
H: Terror in the Mists 1/2	2977.948598
H: Terror in the Mists 0/2	2869.630096
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2819.122843
Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2776.419667
Terror in the Mists 2/2	2739.503649
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2716.248087
Relic of Xuen 2/2	2679.471917
Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2674.977903
Terror in the Mists 1/2	2639.746149
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2617.098523
Relic of Xuen 1/2	2582.447577
Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2577.261331
Terror in the Mists 0/2	2542.872203
Relic of Xuen 0/2	2488.725113
LFR: Terror in the Mists 2/2	2427.659938
LFR: Terror in the Mists 1/2	2339.346994
LFR: Terror in the Mists 0/2	2253.512165
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2211.521552
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2130.75961
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2053.388593

Haste on Bottles

H: Terror in the Mists 2/2	3090.682748
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	3076.822086
Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	3004.667567
H: Terror in the Mists 1/2	2977.948598
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2964.621071
Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2894.881256
H: Terror in the Mists 0/2	2869.630096
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2856.145249
Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2788.820138
Terror in the Mists 2/2	2739.503649
Relic of Xuen 2/2	2679.471917
Terror in the Mists 1/2	2639.746149
Relic of Xuen 1/2	2582.447577
Terror in the Mists 0/2	2542.872203
Relic of Xuen 0/2	2488.725113
LFR: Terror in the Mists 2/2	2427.659938
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2413.754101
LFR: Terror in the Mists 1/2	2339.346994
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2325.629323
LFR: Terror in the Mists 0/2	2253.512165
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2240.895471

Crit Reforge

H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	3094.368688
H: Terror in the Mists 2/2	3090.682748
Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	3020.208844
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2981.532653
H: Terror in the Mists 1/2	2977.948598
Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2909.854357
H: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2872.421811
H: Terror in the Mists 0/2	2869.630096
Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2803.225063
Terror in the Mists 2/2	2739.503649
Relic of Xuen 2/2	2679.471917
Terror in the Mists 1/2	2639.746149
Relic of Xuen 1/2	2582.447577
Terror in the Mists 0/2	2542.872203
Relic of Xuen 0/2	2488.725113
LFR: Terror in the Mists 2/2	2427.659938
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 2/2	2427.524006
LFR: Terror in the Mists 1/2	2339.346994
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 1/2	2338.897896
LFR: Bottle of Infinite Stars 0/2	2253.662713
LFR: Terror in the Mists 0/2	2253.512165

[Chaltione]

does anybody have an idea or just an add on to show me, how much my guard shield will absorb? (i know it's in the tooltip but i would like to have it into weak auras f.e.)

Sorry for being a bit slow, hope this is still helpful.

You mention weak auras, which is what I use, so here is my way of doing it:
Make an aura of any type with text.
Include %c in the text, for example: "Guard value: %c" (no quotation marks).
Paste the following code in the custom function.

function() local g=select(15,UnitBuff("player","Guard"));return g;end

Set "Update Custom Text on..." to "Trigger Update".

This is my export of a progress bar, which I have in a group just by my unitframe:

dWJpcaGEQk9sOu2LQuBdcMPQKMlvfZMs3evfVgcDBQYNrLDkf7LSBPA)sQrjrnmvX4qvPddCEuLblLgokCAQCkj4yO05OQQfcv9qrLwmuSCqlsI8uKhRQEofNKQktvrtwHPlCzvUQOkpdQCDr2OOQ(PQeBwPA7Ik(OKywIsnni67IswguY7qv1OrrJxs6sIIULOW1G09Gs1FLq)wjFtPSy1ueqtrvsa4qKF94G7G)5JF)v34daJZ6cEf9wDelYLaWHcrgrSVr(E7ncI8enen0u0pzIL38QgI2t9F4w9YfQBTRpWw3YHDZzVFuMfn786UaFAFVCjgwaVdwk7svsa4OuHc8dVib71TC8F9HOFYelV5vnYJXaeNOlNRhIsMBUw2WXqyefqhh3b1u0kR(lDlpHxuh4DgnvdROkjaCOq0pzILxrMUXjkCE3qHimayUl7cQPAWs5ZxeqX5)g6gksuu0NnwTNbko1Gt5VXIdLLf52dUnuueE8x7zGIuHOHZWWc4nVQXR3EikZEDB5m)fezxGHMIsMR43cmgHxeCzpnf5LSHttfke9TaJrtrgxNZEI4ZlnytHcrWJZT6tEmorGeeGbafzcWhrJWikUQrcEIWBD(6laoQBZLjac(XbRBjeDwRPUfpakYnevjbGJ6wmaOOSCJGPAWc5JOEYBcDCCh0OgwrmphhZqny9OquoQHf5ZJcja

[siccora]

you're boss! i will try it when i'm home. thank you

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 09:17 AM ----------

Maybe my healers are just badasses.

That's the deal. Yesterday Spiritbinder HC. I swapped between full Mastery Setup to my normal Setup (Haste to 13,50 somewhat reg then crit 15% exp 7,5% hit) and there was no difference. killed the boss with no CDs and the haste/crit setup. so i really really think now, mastery is bull

[Kisho]

Hello everybody,

I have a simple question, but not so simple for me : What choice i can do between 2 config stuff ?

first : the 4p tier (2 ilvl 496 & 2 ilvl 483)
second : the 2tier (1ilvl 496 & 1 ilvl 483) but with the 2 other tier remplaced by a torso 496 & a pants 502 ?

the SS I run, show me 190 856 damage avoided /s in 4p, and 189 071 in 2p and hs superior. I think the 4p is better, but clearly or not?

In other word, the 4p, with 2 lfr tier, is better than 2p with hs superior ilvl?


Sorry for my english

Go for 4 set IMO. Our set bonuses are just that badass. Keep in mind that the 20% Guard increase also applies to the ones our Ox Statue casts on the raid, so it helps out the healers a ton.

---------- Post added 2012-12-18 at 09:41 AM ----------

There are only a couple of Heroic 10 man fights I am even considering the notion of swapping my trinkets for anything else. Heroic Grand Empress and Heroic Sha of Fear. None of the other fights have even pushed me into the notion of swapping to full mastery or Stam. Maybe my healers are just badasses.

That's basically it, yes. Getting more stam/mastery is a crutch to help out undergeared/potentially bad healers. There's only a few fights where it's REALLY helpful; ones you mentioned and maybe a couple others (such as Lei Shi, for the simple fact that no other stat actually helps when tanking her :P).

I used to have to switch to stam/mastery a lot more when in early progression, but now that my healers and I are in better gear I don't need to switch nearly as often.

[Chuupag]

@ promdate

I think your numbers are off somewhere...b/c H Bottle 1/2 has the exact same numbers in the first box on both posts. If you corrected for the proc chance that shouldn't be the case. There may be other but that first caught my eye. Also could you provide the math you're using to determine the proc uptime. Also providing the stat weights would be helpful for people as some value them differently and since the stat weight in that spreadsheet change with the gear you put in.

[Promdates]

I said I got the numbers from the spreadsheet that was listed on Elitist Jerks, to give stat weights for brewmasters. I showed the math for the procs in a previous post, it's not hard to reverse engineer the numbers. Clearly the values listed are for myself, which I had previously said as well. It won't match what yours are, but they might. Even adjusting the stats to be another +15 seconds for each ICD (120 for terror instead of 105, 60 for bottle instead of 45, and 70 for xuen instead of 55), it throws the numbers off for bottle even more in favor of terrors.

My values changed slightly since I posted that last one, but here's what they are now:

Agi : 1.401871806
Exp : 0.826972587
Crit : 0.816709323
Haste : 0.789183804
Parry : 0.639226772
Dodge : 0.56819874
Armor : 0.518757595
Mastery : 0.27797526
Attack Power : 0.229349903
Hit : 0.147033624

(1400*1.401871806)+(8398*.816709323(20/120))= 2995.429354 Heroic Terror 2/2
(787*.27797526)+(525*.789183804)+(3935*1.401871806(20/60))=2453.192055 Heroic Bottle 2/2 (with haste reforge)
(1027*1.401871806)+(3260*1.401871806(15/70))=2371.669588 Relic of Xuen 2/2

Even when you add an additional 15 seconds to each proc chance, it puts bottle in a worse position behind even normal 0/2 terror.

[Chuupag]

I appreciate your attempt but you can't just add 15 seconds, that's not how it works. I don't have time to do the math right now but I'll get to it tonight. I'm not saying your analysis is wrong, I just don't like the ambiguity when something is being attempted to be shown in a mathematical nature.

[Promdates]

Trinkets in their nature are hard to math out due to the RNG effect of the procs. You either have to take into account any "downtime" between procs, as you had previously said "15 seconds", or you just math it based on the actual duration/ICD, which is what the majority of people do when mathing out the trinkets. If you believe it's wrong, by all means, please come up with a better solution. As we have no real simulationcraft to use for brewmasters, but we do know how to math out trinket procs (as we've been doing since TBC), we can get stat weights and figure out what each trinket is weighted to be. Real case,

To get the formula that I used for the trinkets, I looked in various different places for how other classes weighted their trinkets. The majority of them used the same basis of for figuring out the proc. Even people on wowhead figure out the average value of a trinket's proc by doing the (proc ammount * (dur/icd)), just multiply those by the stat weights and you get the average "best case" weight of the item.

Looking at some of the kills I had last night, bottle would re-proc roughly 25 seconds after it faded, which puts it at (20 duration+25 cooldown before proc=45 second ICD). Sometimes it would be roughly a little longer, but in general that's the time it would take to proc again. Terror would proc 1:27 seconds after the buff faded, which is 107 seconds after it first procs, 2 seconds longer than the trinket's ICD is.

[Chuupag]

So doing some more of the math;

Terror has a 105 second ICD and has a proc chance of 15%, meaning it has a 50% chance to have proc'd by the 5th attack.
Bottle has a 45 second ICD and has a proc chance of 15%, meaning is has a 50% chance to have proc'd by the 5th attack.
Xuen has a 55 second ICD and has a proc chance of 20% on crit, meaning is has a 50% chance to have proc'd by the 4th crit

Terror's baseline is 1152 agility. Bottle's baseline is 1079 mastery. Xuen's baseline is 956 agility. Using a very average stat weights of 1.3 for agility, .7 for crit/haste, and .4 for mastery that gives 1497.6 for Terror, 431.6(560.8 reforged) for Bottle, and 1242.8 for Xuen.

Terror's proc 6908 crit for 20 seconds. Bottle's proc is 3236 agility for 20 seconds. Xuen's proc is 3027 agility for 15 seconds. The average time between procs for Terror is 110 seconds, giving 18.18% uptime. Bottle's is 50 seconds for 40% uptime. Xuen's is dependent on your crit rating, but fluctuates between 20 and 25%.

Terror's proc value is 879.11. Bottle's proc value is 1682.72. Xuen's proc value is 885.4.

Terror's total is 2376.71. Bottle's total is 2114.32(2243.52 reforged). Xuen's value is 2128.2.


I think a more important point to bring up is that for Brewmaster that 15 or 20 second window isn't really going to help us that much. Like I showed in a previous post for Terror...that 20 second crit buff will only net you 1 additional EB proc and that the static agility will give you just about the same. So while this is how trinkets have been calculated for a long time, the active mitigation of this new class and spec downplay the value of proc trinkets. This puts more value on the static stats gained from trinkets than the procs. Yes the agil/crit will benefit your dps and throw an extra statue guard, but if all you're worried about is personal survival an avoidance on use trinket would most likely save you more hits than an agil/crit proc.

[omni]

New to Brewmaster Tanking, this guide says it's for 5.1 but also says that Tiger Palm stacks 3 times and talks about using it 3 times before Guard. Tiger Palm no longer stacks 3x. Does it still build stacks of Power Guard? Or do you just keep it a la Slice and Dice and refresh it once before using Guard again?

[SurrealNight]

Tiger Palm only "stacks" once now and Guard gets the +15% buff so long as the buff is present. We spend a lot of GCD's filling with Tiger Palm while waiting on energy/chi so it can really only fall off if your being really lazy with your GCD use.

That is the unique thing about BrM's is most of these rating sticks that other classes uses around specific times for mitigation boosts don't work that way for us outside of +Crit/Agil by boosting EB but sounds like the amount of stacks generated during those specific times is so small it doesn't matter. Even the /use trinkets could more or less be used on CD instead of timing around specific events (unless trying to line up Crit/Agil with lust or something I guess).

The only /use that could really be considered a direct defensive CD is the +dodge trinket but that is laughable based on how weak of a stat dodge is....Would agree that the static value a trinket provides is the most appealing (making Terror the clear winner anyways) followed by Xuen.

[Kazane]

quick question, i'm rocking normal 489 gear but i have the option to get my 4pc the only downside is its all raid finder tier. is it worth changing my gear pieces out for it?
Kazane -Us Bloodscalp