Will DPS warriors continue to be carried in Tier 15?

[VoodooT]

I've heard and read a lot of talk in the recent developer interviews about things that "feel good" to the player, and I have to say I haven't felt good about getting my Shinka off Sha of Fear. My options to use it are either Arms (which is the weaker spec), or Titan's Grip which is the weaker of the two Fury choices. Either option feels like I have to play the inferior version of a spec in order to use this weapon, which I should be happy I got. I am currently going with TG, but am stuck using a RF Starshatter in the OH which also doesn't feel good.

They either need to seriously buff Arms in PVE or nerf 1H Fury a little to compensate (not a straight up nerf, but balance it more), because at this time it seems like if I don't have a 1H Fury spec I am going to fall behind by a good margin.

[Darkfriend]

You seem to not understand that a weapon upgrade can more than make up for what is considered a "Weaker" spec. Even with a 504 shinka and 496 starshatter, Arms is still around 4k DPS higher for me.

[Roguezor]

I've heard and read a lot of talk in the recent developer interviews about things that "feel good" to the player, and I have to say I haven't felt good about getting my Shinka off Sha of Fear. My options to use it are either Arms (which is the weaker spec), or Titan's Grip which is the weaker of the two Fury choices. Either option feels like I have to play the inferior version of a spec in order to use this weapon, which I should be happy I got. I am currently going with TG, but am stuck using a RF Starshatter in the OH which also doesn't feel good.

They either need to seriously buff Arms in PVE or nerf 1H Fury a little to compensate (not a straight up nerf, but balance it more), because at this time it seems like if I don't have a 1H Fury spec I am going to fall behind by a good margin.

Is TG really that bad compared to SMF?

Cause I managed to pull some luck out of my @$$ by first winning a Shinka from sha one week, then a second ne from the charm roll the next week (where i also won the 1 hander since I was tanking and we had no one else who needed it for MS that run).... So atm I'm running with a 2x uppgraded Shinka in MH + second one (not uppgraded) in offhand.

And if SMF is that much better, would it be worth it to use the normal 1h sword from sha with Elegon LFR axe in offhand for example? Or should I stay TG/wait untill i can get a second normal 1 hander?

OT: I'm usualy one of the top dps (when i get to dps, tanking a lot cause of lack of tank in our main group -.-) on most fights as fury. But as arms... pfft, i suck at arms... Tried it for Garalon and 1-2 other fights once (when i still had blue weap(s) tho) and I dropped atleast 10k dps from the last week as fury.
So as long as fury is good/okey, i'll stick with that...

[Darkfriend]

Fury is good. If I won a heroic starshatter, I'd go fury. If I got 2 489 weapons I'd go fury.

Honestly, I'd say simcraft, personal skill, and weapons/gear available are the biggest issues. For the past several tiers I've had top 50 parses as both arms and fury for every fight we've done so I can play both skills fairly similarly well, although I've had way more practice as arms since MOP, so I go by what simcraft shows as being higher DPS after I reforge gear. I use that, as well as the fight to decide what spec to play.

[OscaR]

Again, everyone KNOWS fury does generally higher dps than arms single target, you don't need to pull out your "facts and numbers" to show it. That still doesn't mean Arms is not viable. If you enjoy playing Arms, play Arms cuz it's viable and if you know what you're doing, you won't be the one getting carried. If for some reason a boss is not dying, going from Arms to Fury is not going to suddenly make it fall. If viable means the highest dps then for single target, TG isn't "viable" either.

[Deafknight]

Actually berserker stance is pretty good when used properly and can increase your dps quite a bit on most fight. For example Heart of Fear. You get lots of rage in HoF on every single fight if you dance stance properly

It was more of a joke because he raged @_@

[Eranthe]

Again, everyone KNOWS fury does generally higher dps than arms single target, you don't need to pull out your "facts and numbers" to show it. That still doesn't mean Arms is not viable. If you enjoy playing Arms, play Arms cuz it's viable and if you know what you're doing, you won't be the one getting carried. If for some reason a boss is not dying, going from Arms to Fury is not going to suddenly make it fall. If viable means the highest dps then for single target, TG isn't "viable" either.

Let's say in ideal circumstances that fury is 1% ahead of arms, (it's a bigger difference on simcraft in bis gear, but i'm being generous for the sake of example.) I decide to play arms instead because i enjoy it more. That's fine, i went from theoretical 100k dps to 99k dps. That's a small number. However, if the 17 dps in my raid all decide to play the suboptimal, but still "viable" spec, and they each lose 1% of their total dps, and we assume they do equal dps to me, that's 17k dps lost.

In the real world every spec isn't within 1% of each other on every fight, so the results would be more dramatic, but 17k dps is nothing to scoff at when you hit the enrage timer with 5 seconds til boss death.

[Deleted]

OP hasn't payed this tier I guess. In raids fury with same gear equals a frost DK dps, making it middle to top dps. Depending on skill level and gear you either go down or up. Case closed, the dps is fine. Not to mention the logistical need to get warriors into raid for the banners.

[Balir]

Dps warriors have been quite valuable to some of the top guilds in terms of Raid CDs. Rallying cry on rotation and Banners on rotation - it all helps. It's not ALL about the dps.

[Banzhe]

OP hasn't payed this tier I guess. In raids fury with same gear equals a frost DK dps, making it middle to top dps. Depending on skill level and gear you either go down or up. Case closed, the dps is fine. Not to mention the logistical need to get warriors into raid for the banners.

But top guilds don't use em, and top parses don't reflect it = the specs must be broken compared to others.

Every single thread of this nature reaks of stupidity to say the least!

[Deleted]

Yes top guilds use them. Just on progress raids they do min-max per encounter meaning you might and will see class stacking at it's best. Just like DK's/mages on Will hc or 3 tanks on Amber Shaper hc and so on, but on no encounter this tier you are need to stack warriors.

I have raided with a fury warrior we both were the "melee team" and in almost all fights we were equal dps. And if you would to consider raid composition in 10m raiding the best composition is 2 melee: a warrior and a DK.

So yes indeed this kind of topics are very stupid.

[Adsertif]

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/

I beg to differ.

Other classes are just strong on certain fights, why do you think the top ranks on WOL are usually 1-2 classes? They take advantage of the fight's mechanics and gain one over the raid.

[Roseby]

I believe that everything that has to be said, has been said.

There is no point debating with OP any longer as enough valid points have been made to refute his stance on the subject.

[Biggles Worth]

What's the incentive for lying about shit like this? It does nothing for anyone.

None. I am also very serious about my gear and damage per second. I'm not doing anything special at all either. Also like I said this is 5 man heroic dungeons so stats are really no big deal at all. Anyone not doing amazing damage per second as a warrior in an AoE or single target situation is a mystery to me.

[Takeada]

Let's say in ideal circumstances that fury is 1% ahead of arms, (it's a bigger difference on simcraft in bis gear, but i'm being generous for the sake of example.) I decide to play arms instead because i enjoy it more. That's fine, i went from theoretical 100k dps to 99k dps. That's a small number. However, if the 17 dps in my raid all decide to play the suboptimal, but still "viable" spec, and they each lose 1% of their total dps, and we assume they do equal dps to me, that's 17k dps lost.

In the real world every spec isn't within 1% of each other on every fight, so the results would be more dramatic, but 17k dps is nothing to scoff at when you hit the enrage timer with 5 seconds til boss death.

You're essentially relying on everyone in your raid to be the optimal spec that they should be, and outside of say the top 100 guilds that's just not going to happen and isn't going to be the cause of the majority of your wipes anyways.

Losing 1%, or even 5-10% dps isn't optimal, but it's not going lead to your raid wiping more than usual for the average guild. So scolding someone for playing a less than optimal spec when they're not in a heroic clearing guild isn't really worth it.

[Damosapien]

What the hell happened in 5.1? Pc died so not been on in a bit but arms went from 4th from bottom sim to 3k below everything, blizz have to fix that.

But in real terms, non BiS, arms is very close to fury. from my exp if your weap is better than your gear (3+ I levels) arms is better, or equal if you have 2 of the same weap. I have 2 set so 4 set will swing it a bit more in furys favour but not by much. With 485 I-level I was simming 81k arms and 80.9k tg with another n starshatter. I only have a 476 starshatter for offhand so I stayed arms unsure now though.

[Darkfriend]

What the hell happened in 5.1? Pc died so not been on in a bit but arms went from 4th from bottom sim to 3k below everything, blizz have to fix that.

But in real terms, non BiS, arms is very close to fury. from my exp if your weap is better than your gear (3+ I levels) arms is better, or equal if you have 2 of the same weap. I have 2 set so 4 set will swing it a bit more in furys favour but not by much. With 485 I-level I was simming 81k arms and 80.9k tg with another n starshatter. I only have a 476 starshatter for offhand so I stayed arms unsure now though.

This is correct-with a 504 shin'ka and 491 Starshatter fury TG was simming 3k under arms-and practice/testing bore that out (again we're missing crit buff). Once I get an upgraded kil'rak+502 elegon axe or a heroic starshatter I'll resim and see what happens.

Honestly, because so any well geared and skilled players are playing Fury, fury is showing higher numbers on WOL. As well, fury is a bit more RNG-although this drops as gear goes up due to crit scaling so again the higher parses could simply be ones that were more lucky than those of their counterpart geared/skilled arms brother.

[Nakkí]

Arms is not viable in heroic raids.

Orly?

I'm holding my own - occasionally even topping - on every heroic encounter in the tier so far.
Not even going to consider Fury unless I can get my hands on 2x Kilrak / Kilrak + Elegion to play SMF.
TG feels way too clunky at least as it is right now and doesn't necessarily even perform as well as desired.

[Gatsu]

SMF is awesome. Topping meter every single fight :V

[broggernaut]

Orly?

I'm holding my own - occasionally even topping - on every heroic encounter in the tier so far.
Not even going to consider Fury unless I can get my hands on 2x Kilrak / Kilrak + Elegion to play SMF.
TG feels way too clunky at least as it is right now and doesn't necessarily even perform as well as desired.

I glanced through some of your logs.

I'm not trying to be mean, or purposefully argumentative, but people need to understand that "viable" has become vernacular in the raiding community for "competitive".

The only reasons Arms is competitive right now (with the exception of a couple fights) are: 1. The Arms player significantly out-gears the majority of the DPS and 2. The other DPS in the raid are playing sub-par specs as well or not playing an optimal spec as well as they should be.

There will always be outliers on the charts because Arms is nearly 100% RNG--overall though, Arms will generally under-perform either Fury spec by a fair margin.