Affliction - why so high on meters?

[nightfalls]

It still doesn't mean that Affliction *should* be 20% above Shadow. It also doesn't make any sense to say that no comparisons should be drawn between hybrid and pures; class balancing is very real, and it involves both hybrids and pures - and not in two different camps, one 20% above the other.

OK, I see the point with the "All Parses" feature. Still, there is a point to be made; which is that Zor'lok is naturally friendly toward warlocks even if there is no echo padding. Keep in mind also a significant number of guilds at all world-ranking levels (out of top world guilds, Vodka for example did) kill the echo, which is another boost to affliction - and then, killing that echo isn't padding anymore.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor...14/30/default/

There's 1 month (to account for 5.1) of parses on another encounter neutral fight. It's funny because now that you take out the outliers (All Parses), affliction is no longer at the top, but is definitively in the middle of the pack - with rogues at top (possibly b/c of sprints).

The hybrid tax is - officially - gone, and while you're right in saying that it still lingers to some extent (though likely not on purpose, but rather due to PvP balance/having less specs to choose from etc.), it still doesn't mean that it should.

(this is also a response to any affliction versus shadow posts)

If anything, Shadow is flat out below the pack, and Affliction is only slightly (3-5%?) better than the pack. So if you want to compare Affliction, or any well-parsing DPS spec (say, Fury, Frost DK, any mage, rogue), with shadow, you should talk about how to improve shadow without breaking PvP.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 01:38 AM ----------

But why not? I am arguing that in this very current tier, that there IS a hybrid tax, and that encounter design has made it so that it's okay to have a hybrid tax. I don't see anything to prove me wrong about that 2nd part.

You can think of his argument this way: shadow, elemental, balance all bring major raid cooldowns that can help deal with some of the hardest parts of a fight. Even ret brings 2 BoPs which contributes (and yes, as I said, can help warlocks DPS more).

So if they did the same DPS as warlocks, what's the point of bringing a warlock? (or if you count healthstones, more than 1 warlock in a 25m raid).


I'm not saying a hybrid tax is right, but that's the argument for it above.

[Deleted]

You can think of his argument this way: shadow, elemental, balance all bring major raid cooldowns that can help deal with some of the hardest parts of a fight. Even ret brings 2 BoPs which contributes (and yes, as I said, can help warlocks DPS more).

So if they did the same DPS as warlocks, what's the point of bringing a warlock? (or if you count healthstones, more than 1 warlock in a 25m raid).


I'm not saying a hybrid tax is right, but that's the argument for it above.

This is a very valid argument. I don't think that hybrids should have this distinct utility edge either though (pures should have this amount of utility as well), just as I don't think hybrids should be punished DPS-wise for having it.

To be fair though, pures do have more personal CDs etc. - handy/essential for *many* fights for soaking etc.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 03:04 AM ----------

There's 1 month (to account for 5.1) of parses on another encounter neutral fight. It's funny because now that you take out the outliers (All Parses), affliction is no longer at the top, but is definitively in the middle of the pack - with rogues at top (possibly b/c of sprints).

The timespan setting (the one you set to 1 month) shows the graph for that set amount of time, but doesn't alter the numbers you see to the right. The "sample period" does.

[Bonkura]

Dude, you're 6/10 for HoF and Terrace normal.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...spark/advanced

I'm at the point where I just roll my eyes when I see posts from you. GC said class balance is done around Patchwerk sims? What a joke, show me a source. I remember him saying the exact opposite during beta when Boomkins were bitching about their patchwerk dps.

You have 3/16 heroic this tier, all earned overgeared this month. Stop acting like you have earned any credibility or right to bash people in your posts without bringing proper arguments to back them up.

If you disagree with people at least show some freaking courtesy by telling them why and how you think they are wrong. Your posts provide nothing for the discussions here but frustration for the people who actually try keep them going.


To be honest it just seems like you're here to defend Demo because it's the spec that you prefer. If that's your goal then you should really just ignore this thread completely.

[EvreliaGaming]

You really need to stop acting so high and mighty Bonkura. Almost every thread I see you post in, you look silly.

Your posts provide nothing for the discussions here but frustration for the people who actually try keep them going.

Let's try and have this discussion without getting personal about it, please. We do not need to involve WHO is making the argument to refute it.

How about we listen to the moderators and stop this childish bashing, both of you.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 12:29 PM ----------

I don't understand how you can defend Rets with the simple argument being that you have one in your guild that is able to push numbers. Then using same argument to tell someone they are bad. You really should try harder if you want to express strong opinions about something, because this isn't convincing at all.

What's difficult to understand about this? If one ret can pull the numbers, unless you are suggesting he has some kind of magical advantage over others, then it stands to reason that they should all, in theory, be able to pull those numbers.

[Bonkura]

What's difficult to understand about this? If one ret can pull the numbers, unless you are suggesting he has some kind of magical advantage over others, then it stands to reason that they should all, in theory, be able to pull those numbers.

Only thing comparing DPS numbers from your guild proves is that he can beat people in your group. Nothing more. One player's results is simply not enough to prove the viability/potential for a spec as a whole. Bigger samples are needed to prove it.

[Purpleisbetter]

Hybrid tax is disgusting.

Can't be a fault if somebody likes to dps as Ele Sham or SPriest or Balance dood.

[Deleted]

if hybrids want to dps and be allow to pull higher numbers because theh enjoy plaging that spec, then by chosing that spec they should lose all raid cd's and the ability to heal. compensate them in other ways such as defensive cds and passive/healings cd's.

If they do the same dps as pures plus bring raid cd's, and have the ability to throw out a few heals if needed why bring pures who can only match them in dps but offer no raid cd's or heal others.

They say the tax went but it hasnt and it shouldnt. Not 20% which is claimed but i dont see but at least 5% if played optimally.

[Deleted]

I don't agree that top 100 logs are proportionate to concluding a spec is too strong, they are strong but not on every fight. Fact is it is really easy to pad the meters as affli, most top players prefer demo cause it scales so well with damage bonusses to bosses and the on demand burst + doom is nice does that mean demo is op?. Hell no. Tbh the 5% nerf to sac is not even remotely neccesary especially looking at pvp dmg its just forum qq like this that makes blizz inlcude it. And for the record i play demo

[Bonkura]

I don't understand where this idea of Affli padding is coming from. Would you mind coming with some examples? I'm trying to think of fights this tier where added damage on more targets would not have been good damage helping out the raid. The only ones I can see padding working I don't see why other specs wouldn't be able to pad even better.

In other words. If assuming the damage isn't wasnted but in fact helping the raid, doesn't that just support the argument of Affli being too strong/overpowered?

[Deleted]

Hybrids should lose their "hybridity" if they want to conquer for the number 1 spot in DPS.

That means Heart of the Wild, Ancestral Guidance, Mana Hymn, Halo heal, Void Shift, Vampiric Embrace etc.

Because the fact of the matter is, noone would ever take a mage, warlock or hunter if hybrids could pull out the same DPS as the pures, simply because pures do not have such amazing abilities at their disposal.

That is all.

Instead of bringing aff and arcane in line, bring hunters and rogues in line with arcane and affli, and leave the hybrids where they feel most comfortable.

[Bonkura]

Because the fact of the matter is, noone would ever take a mage, warlock or hunter if hybrids could pull out the same DPS as the pures, simply because pures do not have such amazing abilities at their disposal.

If you think mages, locks and hunters don't bring utility in a raid you're wrong.

[Jessicka]

If you think mages, locks and hunters don't bring utility in a raid you're wrong.

Locks and Hunters yes, Mages not sure they bring enough.

[Bonkura]

Locks and Hunters yes, Mages not sure they bring enough.

Yeah they haven't been that great this tier but they still bring some. There's been quite a lot of fights where dispels and interrupts have been needed. Will of Emp 25H you stacked mages to ring of frost rages. I'd say overall mages have not been less useful than hunters. Nothing can beat our healthstones though.

[Purpleisbetter]

Even more disgusting, let's get rid of hybrid specs then.

The whole raid cd paranoia is laughable, truth is no matter how u look at there's a real mass migration from hybrid specs to pure classes.
Just go check on your own: forum, friends, guild mate. Its a bleeding wound.

Let me clarify one point: i'm maining a warlock this xpac and realized how meaningless is a hybrid class spec.

Halo heals? gimme a break, you need a 25-28 yd of optimal range to get something out of this, wich will be thrown in overheals anyway.Would u delay you haunts/chaos bolts/HoG if it was a decent (40sec cd, there's nothing decent anyway) raid heal as well? No you wouldn't nor i. Nor a shadowpriest, since its one of the best spell DPET wise.
VE? Rofl, its pathetic in a 25m, in a 10? Could help, if it ain't sniped from your healing team anyway. Oh did i mention its cales from your very poor damage? Because its very poor when u stand still. While moving is close to 0.
Balance druid giving up Nature Vigil for HotW ? Since when? Would you trade your grimoire of choice for a 6minute of wannabe-healer CD ? No, neither do the boommies.
Ancestral guidance? weak, it scales from poor damage, 2 min cd, whopping 10 second duration. How many, 6 casts counting GCD? amazing.
HoH? Well everybody takes advantage from it, and it a 8 seconds stand-still channel. Helping, MAYBE,your healers (how many times i leeched HoH procs because i was the lowest on mana...).

Point is simple: before any nerf on Affliction (wich is just KJC and nothing else that need to be toned down) blizz should give some tight love on who fell behind.
And with "love" it means competitive dps no 5/10/15% behind crap. WoW is already filled enough with bullsh*ts, there's no need for pathetic taxes.

[Deleted]

The hybrid tax, in my honest opinion, is bullshit. There's NO reason that pures should have an edge DPS-wise. IF pures have enough utility can then be discussed, but people *do* tend to undervalue how useful pure utility is.
DK and Warrior, if anything, have the same amount utility tools as pures - should they then suffer the hybrid tax as well? Or only Shaman/Druids/Priests/Paladins, because they can heal?

Ultimately, I would much rather see pures and hybrids bring the same amount of utility, and have all DPS balanced equally.

[whi]

You don't seem to understand why hybrid tax exists - hybrids need to do less dps due to the fact, that they can respec and change their role. If the raid is missing a healer that moonkin/ele shammy/shadow can respec and fulfill that need, pures cannot, which means that if there's no difference in dps a raid consisting mostly of hybrids is much more elastic in their comp and has an edge(x healer/tank might be better suited for y boss) over a raid, that has more/mainly pures in their roster - making hybrids the superior choice. Or that's how i understand gc's reasoning.

[EvreliaGaming]

You don't seem to understand why hybrid tax exists - hybrids need to do less dps due to the fact, that they can respec and change their role. If the raid is missing a healer that moonkin/ele shammy/shadow can respec and fulfill that need, pures cannot, which means that if there's no difference in dps a raid consisting mostly of hybrids is much more elastic in their comp and has an edge(x healer/tank might be better suited for y boss) over a raid, that has more/mainly pures in their roster - making hybrids the superior choice. Or that's how i understand gc's reasoning.

Didn't they do away with the concept of hybrid tax like two expansions ago?

[Medieve]

Yup. Still an entertaining read whenever it comes up though.

[whi]

Never heard any official word on dropping that idea, and imo the difference between best pure specs and hybrid casters is too big to be a coincidence, but gc avoids the discussion on twitter, so who knows what will the future bring?

Yup. Still an entertaining read whenever it comes up though.

Either not really, or they're crap at balacing and i'd rather think they know what they're doing and just make a mistake here and there(affli, fire) /shrug.

[Jessicka]

Never heard any official word on dropping that idea, and imo the difference between best pure specs and hybrid casters is too big to be a coincidence, but gc avoids the discussion on twitter, so who knows what will the future bring?

Either not really, or they're crap at balacing and i'd rather think they know what they're doing and just make a mistake here and there(affli, fire) /shrug.

I've seen many, many references to dropping it. Check out the watercooler blogs, it's in more than one of those.