[Guardian] Threat Problem :T

[Joshdatroll]

So, I just got my Druid to 90, got some PVP gear to give myself a bit of a leg up in 5 mans, instead of just going in with greens, and I found that I was having AOE threat problems (and to an extent problems with threat on the boss; I'm used to DK/Warrior/Pally tanking where threat is a joke and I have 300% threat AT LEAST on everything, regardless). "No problem," I thought. "It's a 5 man, it isn't that big a deal." So then I did the first part of LFR and where I'd been doing 40-50k dps on trash, I was doing 20-28k. I was having an INCREDIBLY hard time holding threat on bosses, even. Like, I was hovering around 102% threat if I even HAD threat on the boss. I figured it was that I wasn't expertise capped (I reforged to hit straight away and the rest into crit), so I expertise soft-capped, did the second part, and it was the same story.

Am I doing something wrong? I'm following IcyVeins' guide pretty much to the letter, except for the liberties I've taken with gemming.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ulate/advanced

There's my armory, too.

Are guardians just problematic with threat, or am I doing something wrong, or...?

[rated]

What are you doing for AoE and single target rotations ?

[Joshdatroll]

For AOE:

Thrash > Swipe > Mangle > Glyphed Maul.

Single Target:

FF > Mangle > Thrash > Lacerate

Both of these, I'm using Enrage on cool down, Berserk for snap threat

When I'm getting close to rage capped, I'll use a Frenzied Regen if I'm taking damage, and if I'm not, then I'll Maul.

[Tailswish]

It's hard to say just from the info given. I know I haven't had any real threat issues so far in MoP. Can you give us some additional info about the circumstances where you find yourself having issues? For example, do the DPS in question dramatically outgear you, or are some of the ones giving you problems around your gear level? Is there a particular class that seems to fighting with you for threat?

Also, this isn't directly threat-related, but looking at your Armory, I'd highly recommend Incarnation over Soul of the Forest. Yes, with the new talent system, there's generally no "right" or "wrong" talent...except where there is. Soul of the Forest is rather underpowered, while Incarnation is quite overpowered. It's essentially a rather long boost that's both offensive and defensive (because of the massive influx of rage from being able to spam Mangle for those 30 seconds). Like I said, though, that's not directly threat-related.

[Joshdatroll]

Well, for the most part, I'm about on par, gear wise, with people who I'm running with. In 5 mans, I'm generally just a bit better geared than the people I'm with, and in LFR, I'm a bit behind, but last night when I did LFR, the Blood DK I was tanking with was REEEAAALLLLYYYY undergeared compared to me and he was ripping threat off me and wasn't even using Dark Command. The DPS in the LFR I was in were doing around 50-60k tops, so I have to assume that they were pretty much on the same gear level as me.

I'll definitely try using SoF. I was looking at that, and also at Nature's Vigil.

[Viradiance]

Blood DK

Blood DKs and Brewmaster Monks are huge outliers for tank DPS and threat.

They're really not much of a comparison. Compare yourself to, say, a Paladin or Warrior tank and things will be much more in line-- though I think Druids are bottom of the pack for tank DPS/Threat right now.

[Joshdatroll]

Blood DKs and Brewmaster Monks are huge outliers for tank DPS and threat.

They're really not much of a comparison. Compare yourself to, say, a Paladin or Warrior tank and things will be much more in line-- though I think Druids are bottom of the pack for tank DPS/Threat right now.

Unfortunately I'm doing dps on par with my ilvl 430 Prot Pally. I actually just ran a Random with my pally and held threat and out dps'd my druid.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

Well, for the most part, I'm about on par, gear wise, with people who I'm running with. In 5 mans, I'm generally just a bit better geared than the people I'm with, and in LFR, I'm a bit behind, but last night when I did LFR, the Blood DK I was tanking with was REEEAAALLLLYYYY undergeared compared to me and he was ripping threat off me and wasn't even using Dark Command. The DPS in the LFR I was in were doing around 50-60k tops, so I have to assume that they were pretty much on the same gear level as me.

I'll definitely try using SoF. I was looking at that, and also at Nature's Vigil.

Is this occurring when you're taunting off the Blood DK or is he just naturally catching up to you? If you're taunting off the DK and he's still going ball to the wall in DPS after you've taunted, he will pull threat off of you because of his vengeance stacks.

[Joshdatroll]

Is this occurring when you're taunting off the Blood DK or is he just naturally catching up to you? If you're taunting off the DK and he's still going ball to the wall in DPS after you've taunted, he will pull threat off of you because of his vengeance stacks.

Nooo, see, I was taking the bosses first, growling to cement my threat (or so I thought u_u), and he was still pulling off of me. Same thing on trash: I'll growl one mob, instantly start trying to spam thrash and swipe and mangle and I get the mobs ripped off of me by the other tank's incidental aoe.

[huth]

Growling at something that's already hitting you is little more than wasting the CD.

[Joshdatroll]

Growling at something that's already hitting you is little more than wasting the CD.

I didn't mean to imply that I was growling at something already hitting me; I growl at the boss and THEN I start hitting it.

[Tailswish]

I don't know how much I would worry about other tanks in LFR. As mentioned, blood DKs are a definite outlier. Not to mention, in LFR, there are honestly just some stupid people who are like "LOL, what's a tank swap? I'm the tank, give it here!"

I'll definitely try using SoF. I was looking at that, and also at Nature's Vigil.

I assume you mean you'll try Incarnation, since you have SoF now :-P But yes, Incarnation and Nature's Vigil are both quite good, and actually have some amazing synergy. Pop those two together, and you're pretty near invincible for 30 seconds (and possibly contributing to your group's overall healing). I'd say SoF is just plain inferior to Incarnation. As for HotW vs. NV, HotW usually only works out to be better if you need the stamina (i.e. you're undergearing something) or you're spending a lot of time not tanking (Garajal's a good example).

[Tradu]

Blood DKs and Brewmaster Monks are huge outliers for tank DPS and threat.

They're really not much of a comparison. Compare yourself to, say, a Paladin or Warrior tank and things will be much more in line-- though I think Druids are bottom of the pack for tank DPS/Threat right now.

That's unfortunately true, and that's coming from a Brewmaster. While I don't mind doing good DPS while tanking(in fact, I love it), I hate that I have to stop DPS for something like 5-10 seconds(or at least slow down a lot) when my paladin co-tank taunts, because otherwise I just rip the threat off him. He only has to stop for 1 or 2 GCDs, if that.

[Deleted]

HoTW is an amazing off tank dps CD under heorism or an equally amazing heal CD with popping Tranq and blanketing raid with rejuvenation.

Example being on Blade Lord when running for P2. Being able to heal the raid while running is pretty intense. And it's as strong if not stronger than a resto druid.

[Arielle]

Blood DKs and Brewmaster Monks are huge outliers for tank DPS and threat.

They're really not much of a comparison. Compare yourself to, say, a Paladin or Warrior tank and things will be much more in line-- though I think Druids are bottom of the pack for tank DPS/Threat right now.

There's actually no evidence to back this up whatsoever. You also have to remember that Monk DPS includes Stagger damage, so their numbers will be incorrectly inflated compared to everyone else.

For reference, top 100 parses for 25 heroic over the last month: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

Guardian is square in the midde, within 10% of the top and bottom. Expand that to all parses:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

The gap gets even narrower. Brewmasters being the outlier due to Stagger damage can be ignored. Everyone else is within 6-7% of each other at most. Even if we look at 10m heroic:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

Guardians are on top (due to HotW most likely). Narrowing to top 100:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

Throw out Monks and Paladins come out on top due to their insane AoE tanking ability. Everyone else is within 3% of each other.

So no, Guardian mechanics have 0 to do with the OP's problem. And unless we can see a log, there's very little anyone is going to be able to do to help.

[Trubo]

1. Never reforge out of Crit. As Guardian we get half again the amount of crit listed (100 Crit to all others = 150 Crit for Guardian).

2. Get the soft caps for Hit and Expertise. Reforge out of Haste over Mastery to do this.

3. You should not be reforging to Haste if threat is an issue, as auto-attack threat is very minimal to special ability threat.

4. Pure Agility gems are sub-optimal. You're better off with Pure Crit (Yellow), Crit+Sta/Crit+Hit (Blue), and Crit+Agi/Crit+Expertise (Red)

5. Enchant-wise, favor DPS enchants over tank enchants, exception being your meta.

6. Most minor detail but you really should have Glyph of Grace.

[Joshdatroll]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/

I did Elegon and then failed pretty miserably on Will, and the LFR pretty much broke up at that point.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 02:12 AM ----------

1. Never reforge out of Crit. As Guardian we get half again the amount of crit listed (100 Crit to all others = 150 Crit for Guardian).

2. Get the soft caps for Hit and Expertise. Reforge out of Haste over Mastery to do this.

3. You should not be reforging to Haste if threat is an issue, as auto-attack threat is very minimal to special ability threat.

4. Pure Agility gems are sub-optimal. You're better off with Pure Crit (Yellow), Crit+Sta/Crit+Hit (Blue), and Crit+Agi/Crit+Expertise (Red)

5. Enchant-wise, favor DPS enchants over tank enchants, exception being your meta.

Thank you. I will do these things right now. The only reason my gemming was weird was because I was seeing if pure agi gems would do me any good. Again, thank you. I really appreciate this.

[Trubo]

For your rotation:

Mangle should be used on Cooldown unless you're rage capped.

AoE: Mangle > Thrash > Swipe. Maul (with glyph) should be used on cooldown if rage generation is a non-issue or if you don't need SD or FR.

Single Target: Mangle > Thrash > Lacerate > FF. Again, Maul with glyph should be used on Cooldown as described.

[Arielle]

I did Elegon and then failed pretty miserably on Will, and the LFR pretty much broke up at that point.

Log is broke :\

Reforge out of Haste over Mastery to do this.

Wat.

Mangle should be used on Cooldown unless you're rage capped.

No? Mangle should be used on cooldown regardless of how much Rage you have.

[Karnudge]

Blood DKs and Brewmaster Monks are huge outliers for tank DPS and threat.

They're really not much of a comparison. Compare yourself to, say, a Paladin or Warrior tank and things will be much more in line-- though I think Druids are bottom of the pack for tank DPS/Threat right now.

No, warriors and pallies are lower than us on threat. We're about on par with DKs, and a monk's keg smash will just pwn everything.
Make sure you're hit/exp capped so you're not missing anything.