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  1. #1261
    Quote Originally Posted by coldbear View Post
    The RealID was a noble way to counteract this:

    [IMG]epic penny arcade comic[IMG]

    But sadly that was not to be, for identity theft and persecution and bullying issues, obviously.
    I actually liked that idea, interestingly enough. It would do wonders to reduce asshattery. But that's a different topic.

  2. #1262
    Does CRZ exist? - Yes
    Did it enhance or increase World PvP - Yes
    Is it going away? - No
    Do people just need to get over it and either move on, reroll, or transfer? - yes
    Seems like all this bickering back and forth about how it was and how it is, is pointless. Blizzard won't give free xfers and they will not reverse or opt out CRZ. People need to suck it up or unsub. The game has changed (in my opinion for the better) and it will NEVER be what it was. The sooner people accept that fact, the sooner this thread finally dies.
    Last edited by BeastmasterGuardian; 2012-12-30 at 03:42 AM.

  3. #1263
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Seems like all this bickering back and forth about how it was and how it is, is pointless. Blizzard won't give free xfers and they will not reverse or opt out CRZ. People need to suck it up or unsub. The game has changed (in my opinion for the better) and it will NEVER be what it was. The sooner people accept that fact, the sooner this thread finally dies.
    why should people pay a penalty/transfer for each character they leveld on a dead pvp realm ?
    Those people will sooner quit playing, and so blizzard will lose more cash-flow in the end .

  4. #1264
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    Quote Originally Posted by stresskiller View Post
    why should people pay a penalty/transfer for each character they leveld on a dead pvp realm ?
    The same reason anyone ever pays for a transfer. You don't like your current server, so you pay to move to another. This reason isn't magically more important than any other.
    Those people will sooner quit playing, and so blizzard will lose more cash-flow in the end .
    Honestly, that remains to be seen. We're talking about the few people on PvP realms who don't like the PvP rule set they chose. I seriously doubt that's a majority, or even a significant minority. Even if they DO quit, well, people quit all the time, and for plenty of different reasons. It doesn't mean they won't come BACK, either.


  5. #1265
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The same reason anyone ever pays for a transfer. You don't like your current server, so you pay to move to another. This reason isn't magically more important than any other.
    it's not about the server it's about the way the changed the gameplay with introducing CRZ.
    but because i'm not want to ruin other peoples game play by claiming that CRZ has to be removed , i'm willing to move to a PVE realm but i REFUSE to pay for it.
    because Blizzard changed the game play.

  6. #1266
    Quote Originally Posted by stresskiller View Post
    it's not about the server it's about the way the changed the gameplay with introducing CRZ.
    but because i'm not want to ruin other peoples game play by claiming that CRZ has to be removed , i'm willing to move to a PVE realm but i REFUSE to pay for it.
    because Blizzard changed the game play.
    Remember when you bought the box with the game? Remember the website you went to to download it after you paid for it? Remember the part where it says "ONLINE GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE"?

    You don't automatically get to have the game stay exactly the same way as you personally want it, for ever. If so, I'd personally prefer the last bit of classic vanilla when they started getting a clue about spec & class balance but everything was mostly just about having a good reputation on your server so you could get gear and get help when you needed it.

    But I don't get to dictate the terms, so I just deal. Or don't play.

  7. #1267
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by coldbear View Post
    Remember when you bought the box with the game? Remember the website you went to to download it after you paid for it? Remember the part where it says "ONLINE GAME EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE"?
    Oh come on, that's such a CYA-argument. Of course it may change. It will change every minor patch. Doh!

    But I don't get to dictate the terms, so I just deal. Or don't play.
    Agreed though. Lets vote with our wallet.

  8. #1268
    Lol. I actually just leveled a Monk from 1 to 90 in a PVP realm.. I've been killed to the point where I have had to log off or do dungeons. And I enjoyed it. It gave me good laughs and it adds more of a atmosphere to the game :P I mean whats the point of rolling on a PvP realm if you're going to complain every time you die.. Use your money to transfer..

  9. #1269
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokoz View Post
    Lol. I actually just leveled a Monk from 1 to 90 in a PVP realm.. I've been killed to the point where I have had to log off or do dungeons. And I enjoyed it. It gave me good laughs and it adds more of a atmosphere to the game :P I mean whats the point of rolling on a PvP realm if you're going to complain every time you die.. Use your money to transfer..
    I don't think a normal person rolls PvP and complains every time they DIE. I wouldn't mind dying so long as the dying was a result of my lack of skill rather than there being no competition.

    I like the competitive nature of PvP, but there is no competitive nature in most of what people call "world PvP".

  10. #1270
    I play at a PVP realm and I don't enjoy it. I'm a pacifist and I'm only in this realm because of my friends. I don't even like my faction.

    Edit: But even being a pacifist I don't cry about being ganked. I know about the riscs and being a paladin I have my "tools"... hahaha

  11. #1271
    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    I don't think a normal person rolls PvP and complains every time they DIE. I wouldn't mind dying so long as the dying was a result of my lack of skill rather than there being no competition.

    I like the competitive nature of PvP, but there is no competitive nature in most of what people call "world PvP".
    Umm, it is a lack of skill if you can't figure out how to level in BGs and LFD without getting ganked. Or level on a PVE server and then transfer over. Or find some friends. That would be "social skill" to get them to watch your back.

    TLDR; just stay in the cities and queue up if your lack of skill gets you ganked on a PVP realm while leveling.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Oh come on, that's such a CYA-argument. Of course it may change. It will change every minor patch. Doh!
    .
    What would you prefer - that they don't tell people that the experience will in fact change? Then they'd be crying about "OMG Y U NO TEL ME GAME CHANGGE???!!1"

  12. #1272
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    Not sure if lack of skills is the right statement for this.

  13. #1273
    Quote Originally Posted by coldbear View Post
    Umm, it is a lack of skill if you can't figure out how to level in BGs and LFD without getting ganked. Or level on a PVE server and then transfer over. Or find some friends. That would be "social skill" to get them to watch your back.

    TLDR; just stay in the cities and queue up if your lack of skill gets you ganked on a PVP realm while leveling.
    I think my point went over your head. There's no skill involved for either party when a 90 kills a 30. It's not competitive PvP (which I do enjoy). If they had a server that had competitive world PvP but had restrictions of some kind to ensure battles are two-sided, I'd play it. I know others would too.

  14. #1274
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by coldbear View Post
    [...]

    What would you prefer - that they don't tell people that the experience will in fact change? Then they'd be crying about "OMG Y U NO TEL ME GAME CHANGGE???!!1"
    I could put that label on anything. On a cup of coffee: "your life experience may change". While driving a car "driving experience may change". It is a meaningless sentence. Anything can change. Nothing is permanent except changes. The only thing which would force them a guaranteed experience is... drumroll... a contract.

    And EULAs give you no rights whatsoever in addition to the rights you had before the EULA. They restrict your right. Only copyleft licenses (which are themselves copyright licenses) grant you additional rights, and contracts themselves.

    As for CYA you don't seem to understand what it means. 1) we have a stupidly vague statement like here 2) we can then refer almost any argument to this statement.

    Like someone complains about rogue being underpowered: "well they did say your experience may change..."

    Except with or without that argument, they would be allowed to make such change anyway. Whereas if the servers are unreachable for 30 days your experience "has also changed" but they didn't allow you access to their servers which is a breach of... drumroll... contract. Even if their EULA would say they wouldn't be accountable, they still would be because those laws are above EULA (which, individually, aren't even proven to be upheld in court).

  15. #1275
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    I think my point went over your head. There's no skill involved for either party when a 90 kills a 30. It's not competitive PvP (which I do enjoy). If they had a server that had competitive world PvP but had restrictions of some kind to ensure battles are two-sided, I'd play it. I know others would too.

    Do you want level-restricted PvP with a focus on equality in team strength? Then what you want is Battlegrounds or Arena.
    Do you want voluntary world PvP where there's still a risk of being attacked, but only if you want to get involved in PvP action? PvE servers. Just flag yourself for PvP, and there you go.

    It's not possible to deliver "competitive world PvP". That defeats the entire purpose of world PvP. You're talking about battlegrounds, where you have specific goals and the teams are balanced according to level and number. World PvP is about unrestricted PvP against any player you meet in the world setting. That's what people mean by "world PvP". If you place level and number restrictions, it's no longer "world PvP", it's "instanced PvP against a selected team designed to match your team in both level and number". It's battlegrounds. Except even then, it wouldn't be balanced, since you'd have plenty of people who go about their PvE day without getting involved, meaning it would be easy for one "team" to all coordinate to slaughter the other "team" that isn't working together.

    And any further restrictions just make it even less practical or useful.

    Nobody's saying that you have to like world PvP as it currently exists. We're just pointing out that if you don't, the PvP experience that does match what you describe is already available. It's on the PvE servers. And there's no point changing the PvP ruleset, since the issue is nonexistent.

    It's like a guy walking into the girl's washroom and complaining about the lack of urinals. We get it; you're in the wrong spot. The correct response is to go to the right bathroom in the first place, not to demand they install urinals in the girl's washroom.


  16. #1276
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Do you want level-restricted PvP with a focus on equality in team strength? Then what you want is Battlegrounds or Arena.
    Do you want voluntary world PvP where there's still a risk of being attacked, but only if you want to get involved in PvP action? PvE servers. Just flag yourself for PvP, and there you go.

    It's not possible to deliver "competitive world PvP". That defeats the entire purpose of world PvP. You're talking about battlegrounds, where you have specific goals and the teams are balanced according to level and number. World PvP is about unrestricted PvP against any player you meet in the world setting. That's what people mean by "world PvP". If you place level and number restrictions, it's no longer "world PvP", it's "instanced PvP against a selected team designed to match your team in both level and number". It's battlegrounds. Except even then, it wouldn't be balanced, since you'd have plenty of people who go about their PvE day without getting involved, meaning it would be easy for one "team" to all coordinate to slaughter the other "team" that isn't working together.

    And any further restrictions just make it even less practical or useful.

    Nobody's saying that you have to like world PvP as it currently exists. We're just pointing out that if you don't, the PvP experience that does match what you describe is already available. It's on the PvE servers. And there's no point changing the PvP ruleset, since the issue is nonexistent.

    It's like a guy walking into the girl's washroom and complaining about the lack of urinals. We get it; you're in the wrong spot. The correct response is to go to the right bathroom in the first place, not to demand they install urinals in the girl's washroom.
    It must be awfully dull living in a world where you are always right. When I saw this thread had been resurrected I wondered how long it would be until you turned up to tell everyone that has a problem with the current system they are wrong.

    World PVP is dead and has been for many years and the attempts to resuscitate it, Halaa, Wintergrasp, Tol Barad have failed. I won't go into the problems with level 90 players killing lower level players in one shot as it has been said over and over again in this thread but you simply refuse to acknowledge that this kind of behaviour can have a negative impact on the game. Yes, before you tell us again, Blizzard can change the game however they see fit, they can make heroics hard, they can redo the old world instead of giving the majority of players content. Whether they can afford to ignore the players' complaints again is another matter entirely.

  17. #1277
    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    I think my point went over your head. There's no skill involved for either party when a 90 kills a 30. It's not competitive PvP (which I do enjoy). If they had a server that had competitive world PvP but had restrictions of some kind to ensure battles are two-sided, I'd play it. I know others would too.
    I think my point went over your head. There is no skill involved in blindly going out questing without a backup on PVP server. You're just asking for it. You know exactly what's going to happen and then you come here crying about it when it does eventually happen.

    Learn. To. Play. Learn to look over your shoulder. Learn where the ganking hotspots are. Learn how to rez and fly away. Learn how to make friends. Learn how to help people so you get a reputation and get help in return. Learn to join a guild. Learn to play an alt on a PVE server.

    These are all parts of the game you apparently willfully and blindly choose to suck at. Stop sucking. You choose to treat WoW as if it is a single-player game where all things are fair and balanced. That's what PVE servers are for. Everyone just being nice to each other unless you both flag for pvp.

  18. #1278
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Do you want level-restricted PvP with a focus on equality in team strength? Then what you want is Battlegrounds or Arena.
    Do you want voluntary world PvP where there's still a risk of being attacked, but only if you want to get involved in PvP action? PvE servers. Just flag yourself for PvP, and there you go.
    Your latter option does not address the problem. I'm still going to have people massively more powerful than me come and effortlessly kill me. I don't want PvP only when I want to get involved, I want PvP to not have ridiculously and unrealistically large gaps in power. I don't mind somebody coming and death gripping me away while I'm trying to quest as long as the fight is competitive.

    There's a reason we don't put the Packers against a third grade flag football team, then if the third graders complain tell them "Hey, you wanted to play football. You knew this could have happened. You should pick a safer sport, like golf or something."

    It's not possible to deliver "competitive world PvP". That defeats the entire purpose of world PvP.
    No it doesn't, and it is possible. You simply either implement a dishonorable kill system to discourage one-sided fights, or you don't allow it altogether outside of a certain level range (unless flagged for it). It's not battlegrounds, it's world PvP, because it's PvP that takes place in the world rather than in a small arena.

    This is a game mechanics problem that didn't exist to this degree in Vanilla (which is why it was fine then). Sure, it happened some, but the gaps in power were not impractically gigantic. We had people who were twice as powerful as you, not 100 times as powerful as you. One could arguably beat someone twice as powerful with some luck and a lot of skill. The same is not said for 100 times the power.

    You know what would be a solution (although extremely difficult to implement)? Power scaling. That is, PvP effectiveness is all relative to who you are fighting. If a level 90 were to engage a level 30, they would fight as effectively as a level 30. Boom, competitive world PvP. I gather this would be unpopular because for some reason people enjoy one-shotting others, though I can't figure out why.

  19. #1279
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It must be awfully dull living in a world where you are always right. When I saw this thread had been resurrected I wondered how long it would be until you turned up to tell everyone that has a problem with the current system they are wrong.

    World PVP is dead and has been for many years and the attempts to resuscitate it, Halaa, Wintergrasp, Tol Barad have failed. I won't go into the problems with level 90 players killing lower level players in one shot as it has been said over and over again in this thread but you simply refuse to acknowledge that this kind of behaviour can have a negative impact on the game. Yes, before you tell us again, Blizzard can change the game however they see fit, they can make heroics hard, they can redo the old world instead of giving the majority of players content. Whether they can afford to ignore the players' complaints again is another matter entirely.
    This behaviour has a positive impact on the game. It increases faction antipathy and a feeling of "War". Which is what this game is about, you flower-sniffing bunny loving hippie communist.

    Halaa, WG and TB were great back in the day. With a bit of luck they'll turn them all into 1:1 ratio server-only BGs so there'll be incentive to roll on the underdog side of each server.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    Your latter option does not address the problem. I'm still going to have people massively more powerful than me come and effortlessly kill me. I don't want PvP only when I want to get involved, I want PvP to not have ridiculously and unrealistically large gaps in power. I don't mind somebody coming and death gripping me away while I'm trying to quest as long as the fight is competitive.

    There's a reason we don't put the Packers against a third grade flag football team, then if the third graders complain tell them "Hey, you wanted to play football. You knew this could have happened. You should pick a safer sport, like golf or something."
    You need a new game. A game without gear. Any gear, any achievement that makes you more powerful in the game will automatically give you a competitive advantage. I suggest you stick in BGs and learn to Arena with fellow noobs, and learn to hit and run and only roll with a group in BGs so you can get support. Preferably play a ranged class.

    Without any gear progression this would be a very stale game, a game that the devs are not interested in making.

  20. #1280
    Quote Originally Posted by Seegtease View Post
    I don't want PvP only when I want to get involved, I want PvP to not have ridiculously and unrealistically large gaps in power. I don't mind somebody coming and death gripping me away while I'm trying to quest as long as the fight is competitive.
    I would say that many of the parties involved in this discussion suffer from a conflict of interests.

    When leveling an alt I personally enjoy getting killed even by players who are far beyond my level. It is fun. I also enjoy having the possibility of attacking someone far below my level. I don't seek to do it but it adds to the open world experience and results in me having the means of protecting my interests if I ever end up in a situation where I want to do so. Examples of these can be me protecting a low level character from another, or a low level character trying to obtain a resource node/rare spawn that I want. Not being able to take action in these situations on a PvP server would seem rather puzzling.

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