Did the Forsaken get a new "image" since Cataclysm?

[Deleted]

What is it with people that want useless leaders. First Voss, then Koltira, now some spoiled brat that was supposed to be used only for diplomatic wedding?

If anything, the Forsaken would literally rape Calia into pieces for what her brother did to their nation.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah they couldn't control themselves and involuntarily attacked other Gilneans. But they didn't go out their and deliberately turned people into Worgen. Like the Forsaken are turning people into undead.

Crowley turned people into worgen to bolster his numbers, you can argue he did it to protect them, but he spread his curse willingly.

If anything, the Forsaken would literally rape Calia into pieces for what her brother did to their nation.

They honored his father I doubt they would tear her to shreds, though serving is unlikely.

[Deleted]

Yeah they couldn't control themselves and involuntarily attacked other Gilneans. But they didn't go out their and deliberately turned people into Worgen. Like the Forsaken are turning people into undead.

Lol, of course they did - or how do you explain why all Gilneans are now Worgen? They continued doing so even after Sylvanas broke their necks in the battle for Gilneas.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 07:26 PM ----------

They honored his father I doubt they would tear her to shreds, though serving is unlikely.

Well, I'll not deny any scenario - but in all of them she has to be undead also to even get heard. Maybe as Sylvanas second right hand, taking Varimathras place after the Kor'kron Elite leave Undercity in the Siege of Orgrimmar patch or 6.0.

[Deleted]

Lol, of course they did - or how do you explain why all Gilneans are now Worgen? They continued doing so even after Sylvanas broke their necks in the battle for Gilneas.

Source?

Crowley turned people into worgen to bolster his numbers, you can argue he did it to protect them, but he spread his curse willingly.

But he didn't force it onto them, like the Forsaken are doing.

[Deleted]

Forsaken aren't, or have ever been, evil*.

They are amoral sociopaths building an empire. The forsaken rarely do anything cause of "evil", they rarely do something that will not lead to an advantage.

Evil is absolute, primal, it is the mean and the end on itself. The forsaken's actions are means to guarantee their existence.

Of course, these actions are callous, horrible, cruel and downright despicable most of the time; but their objective it's survival.

*Now, defining evil would takes us nowhere for the next century or so, That's why I'm using the sort-of arbitrary supposition that "intentionality" is what matters in this case. Can you be evil when you don't mean or care to be evil? Is it reveling on other's suffering and pain a condition of evil?

Love the way you put this.../agree

[Deleted]

Source?

Again - Worgen/Undead starting areas.

But he didn't force it onto them, like the Forsaken are doing.

Okay.

Forsaken: res fallen people and giving them the choice to join Sylvanas, be free or return being dead.


Worgen: Get turned into a Worgen and be a Gilnean soldier or die to the Forsaken. They werent even offered a 3rd choice.

[Deleted]

I object!
They do ask every slain body if they want to become Forsaken and we all know that silence is consent.

They are still forcing undeath upon them, while the Worgen are not forcing anyone to be Worgen.

Again - Worgen/Undead starting areas.

No. There is nothing in the Forsaken or Worgen starting area that suggests that all Gilneans are now Worgen and that this happened because the Gilnean Worgen forcibly turned the still human Gilneans into Worgen. And if I'm wrong about this provide me with the quest.

Forsaken: res fallen people and giving them the choice to join Sylvanas, be free or return being dead.

There's probably no Forsaken, except the original ones who broke free from the Lich Kings will, who arent willingly serving Sylvanas.


Worgen: Get turned into a Worgen and be a Gilnean soldier or die to the Forsaken. They werent even offered a 3rd choice.

The Forsaken kill humans and then raise them into undeath. Sure they can return to being dead, but it's not a fair choice considering they killed them to begin with. It's basically serve us or die.

In the case of Fenris Isle the Worgen not only offered them to be saved from exactly that fate, they didn't threaten or harm the humans in any way, They simply offered a solution. They didn't kill them. They didn't forcibly put them into a situation where the prospect of being turned into Worgen appealed to them. The Forsaken were the ones who put them into this position by threatening to kill and raise them.

And in no other situation did the Worgen turn other people into Worgen and especially not by force. At least not the ones that are in control of their own actions.

So in both situations the Forsaken are the villains.

[TheDangerZone]

I object!
They do ask every slain body if they want to become Forsaken and we all know that silence is consent.

"Dude! she was like, dead or something!"

"Now she isn't!"

Nah but really, the devs themselves said in a Q&A that after the shock of rebirth and it's rampage fades, the newly raised are given the choice: serve Sylvanas, or the true death.

I mean, for the humans in Hillsbrad that are turned, is kinda the best deal. They get to remain in their lands, albeit a bit more rott-ey.

[Deleted]

"People tend to blame others for how the Forsaken act. In reality, they are deep at heart bad people."

Forsaken: res fallen people and giving them the choice to join Sylvanas, be free or return being dead.

Yeah because we all know what is going to await them once they die. Sylvanas short story summed that up neatly. The Forsaken are dragging these souls back out of the light into their broken and shattered hulls and force upon them the choice to either serve them or be destroyed and send onto an eternity of suffering and pain in the Warcraft equivalent of hell.
And that's completly ignoring that fact that the vast majority of them were killed by the forsaken in the first place. They murdered these people and those who choose not to join them get killed a second time.

The Worgen were rabbit at first but eventually get it under control at which points the remnant let themselves be turned in order to stand a chance against the forsaken and orcs invading them.

I object!
They do ask every slain body if they want to become Forsaken and we all know that silence is consent.

I don't think this would work out very well if it was your defense in court for taking advantage of an passed out person.

"Dude! she was like, dead or something!"

"Now she isn't!"

Nah but really, the devs themselves said in a Q&A that after the shock of rebirth and it's rampage fades, the newly raised are given the choice: serve Sylvanas, or the true death.

I mean, for the humans in Hillsbrad that are turned, is kinda the best deal. They get to remain in their lands, albeit a bit more rott-ey.

The best deal would've been to not be murdered in the first place. Being dragged out of the warcraft equivalent of heaven screaming and kicking, forced into your old broken and shattered hull and being threatened to either serve the Lich Queen or being destroyed for good and send to hell without any kind of chance to ever escape and nothing but an eternity of suffering in front of you is NOWHERE near a good deal.

[Deleted]

What do you expect them to do, they can't exactly ask the dead people if they mind getting resurrected.

But they do give them a choice after becoming Undead: You can still die.

How about not raising any people into undeath. Even Garrosh knows that it is too wicked. And that is saying something.

[Deleted]

How about not raising any people into undeath. Even Garrosh knows that it is too wicked. And that is saying something.

I'd personally be happy to have a second life. :<

[Verdugo]

How about not raising any people into undeath. Even Garrosh knows that it is too wicked. And that is saying something.

Garrosh is a freaking hypocrite. He is willing to sacrifice his own kin in order to win, yet when a chance to recycle fallen appears, its suddenly a big nono.

[Deleted]

I'd personally be happy to have a second life. :<

So you'd be happy to be murdered, then raised by the same people, given the choice to either serve them or be killed again and if you're killed you'll go to a place worse then hell to be tormented by creatures of indefinite cruelty for all eternity and even if you choose to serve you'll eventually be destroyed or decay to the point of going feral.

Yeah, sounds great. Sign me up!

[TheDangerZone]

The Forsaken kill humans and then raise them into undeath. Sure they can return to being dead, but it's not a fair choice considering they killed them to begin with. It's basically serve us or die.

In the case of Fenris Isle the Worgen not only offered them to be saved from exactly that fate, they didn't threaten or harm the humans in any way, They simply offered a solution. They didn't kill them. They didn't forcibly put them into a situation where the prospect of being turned into Worgen appealed to them. The Forsaken were the ones who put them into this position by threatening to kill and raise them.

And in no other situation did the Worgen turn other people into Worgen and especially not by force. At least not the ones that are in control of their own actions.

So in both situations the Forsaken are the villains.

And the alternative is death. Join us or die. That's something that not other conquering race offers, in fact, it can be considered a small upside on being killed by the Forsaken.

For the people in Fenris was either become Forsaken or become Worgen; you can chalk it all you want it like the worgen didn't act against their will, but at the end it was either Forsaken or Worgen, pick a side. It is biased to say that worgen were the "good guys" in this situation, they didn't go out of their way to save this humans; no, because they needed to bolster their forces as well. It was about choice; the forsaken at the end offer it between servitude or true death, Worgen between the curse or fodder for the forsaken.

[Verdugo]

So you'd be happy to be murdered, then raised by the same people, given the choice to either serve them or be killed again and if you're killed you'll go to a place worse then hell to be tormented by creatures of indefinite cruelty for all eternity and even if you choose to serve you'll eventually be destroyed or decay to the point of going feral.

Yeah, sounds great. Sign me up!

All the bigger motivation not to die and find a way to lichdom.

[Deleted]

Yes, but Garrosh thinks it's okay to infect Orcs with Sha..
So I don't think his opinion is one that we should follow.

Garrosh is a freaking hypocrite. He is willing to sacrifice his own kin in order to win, yet when a chance to recycle fallen appears, its suddenly a big nono.

When Garrosh said that to Sylvanas, that was at the beginning of Cataclysm. He has changed since then.

And the alternative is death. Join us or die. That's something that not other conquering race offers, in fact, it can be considered a small upside on being killed by the Forsaken.

For the people in Fenris was either become Forsaken or become Worgen; you can chalk it all you want it like the worgen didn't act against their will, but at the end it was either Forsaken or Worgen, pick a side. It is biased to say that worgen were the "good guys" in this situation, they didn't go out of their way to save this humans; no, because they needed to bolster their forces as well. It was about choice; the forsaken at the end offer it between servitude or true death, Worgen between the curse or fodder for the forsaken.

If anything your opinion is biased. Just have to look at your avatar,

[Scummer]

And the alternative is death. Join us or die. That's something that not other conquering race offers, in fact, it can be considered a small upside on being killed by the Forsaken.

For the people in Fenris was either become Forsaken or become Worgen; you can chalk it all you want it like the worgen didn't act against their will, but at the end it was either Forsaken or Worgen, pick a side. It is biased to say that worgen were the "good guys" in this situation, they didn't go out of their way to save this humans; no, because they needed to bolster their forces as well. It was about choice; the forsaken at the end offer it between servitude or true death, Worgen between the curse or fodder for the forsaken.

How could the Worgen be seen as anything but the good guys to them when they're on the same side - the Alliance?
Also you have to bear in mind who the leader was. Crowley has shown himself to be very caring person for his people and very understanding and as we're fully aware is to the point where he will rebel for the sake of his people. This isn't a guy who wanted them to join the cause because he wanted them to bolster his numbers, he is the kind of guy who would be doing it to assure the refugees that they they would not become corrupted by the Forsaken.
You don't have call either faction good or evil to realise that the Forsaken were obviously the "bad guys" in this situation (As they are in situations now ).

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 07:29 PM ----------

So you'd be happy to be murdered, then raised by the same people, given the choice to either serve them or be killed again and if you're killed you'll go to a place worse then hell to be tormented by creatures of indefinite cruelty for all eternity and even if you choose to serve you'll eventually be destroyed or decay to the point of going feral.

Yeah, sounds great. Sign me up!

Meh the people who make that argument I don't think are discussing the right fantasy universe. Warcraft has never been about people making such choices unless they are villains.

[Stir]

It was stated that holy and discipline trees are avalaible to them purely because of gameplay reasons.

Very late reply to this one, but here goes:
Sure; you are correct. The talent trees were only available due to gameplay reasons (because it would make sense for the Forsaken to have the Priest class, since they invented the Shadow to begin with). That doesn't take away the fact that the Forsaken cannot use the light because they are... Well; the Forsaken. They feel abandoned by the Light; this is what makes them Forsaken in the first place. And undead person who does not feel abandoned by the Light cannot be Forsaken. The effect of this choice (for gameplay purposes) allows some undead to no longer be Forsaken.
Another example of this is the Ebon Blade. While other Death Knights have lost their connection with the Light, the Ebon Blade death knights regained it during the attack on Light's Hope Chapel. They are guarded by the light; even while activating their buried, maybe latent, powers of actual Undeath by using the talent 'Lichborn,' the Light still prevents them from being controlled as other Undead would be. A 'control Undead' spell doesn't work on an Ebon Blade Death Knight who has activated their Lichborn ability, even though they count, fully and wholly, as Undead at that point.

It's still a tricky thing, because healing spells that use the Light can still restore the wounds of the Forsaken, which shouldn't be possible... Unless they are not fully Forsaken. Unless their doubt is not fully there. Unless there is 'humanity' left in them. Of course; the actual reason for this is, again, gameplay-related. It would be really troublesome for the Forsaken to receive adverse effects from Light-based healing spells. Still; the fact that they don't (because of gameplay-related reasons) has an impact on what is happening in the game and in it's world. And the fact is: It's pretty easy to come up with lore-based reasons that explain a gameplay feature such as this.

[Deleted]

It was stated that holy and discipline trees are avalaible to them purely because of gameplay reasons.

Actually they stated that they can use the Holy Light, it just hurts them immensely.

[Totle]

If anything, the Forsaken would literally rape Calia into pieces for what her brother did to their nation.

Except that Calia was a beloved princess and these are technically her subjects. So, unless the Forsaken are completely brainwashed, then they would still have memory of Calia. She is the rightful heir.

Assuming, of course, that she was also turned.