What the 5.2 Warrior is lookin' like.

[Deleted]

Your response is taking the original quote out of context. His reply was talking about DPS warriors, not tank warriors. Though honestly, as fury, your enrage uptime is high enough you should be able to get ER off for free no problem almost on demand.

Oh, my bad. I'm assuming Thylacine is talking about Protection when i see him post. But yeah, as DPS i can see second wind being a lot more useful, especially considering you don't have last stand to use together with ER and that you don't have that kind of dedicated healing on you in all situations.

[Hotsforyou]

shockwave nerf is terrible, I use it to stun caster mobs while I pull other caster mobs in dungeons

I agree. I don't PvP and it really pisses me off that they make the changes to quiet the pvpers down while killing it for us in PVE. This is why i have hated arena since day 1.

The Shockwave Nerf really bugs me.

[meathead]

I'm looking at the rogue changes right now. And no, I don't see your point. Are rogues giving you trouble currently? Hell, are rogues giving anyone trouble currently? They needed help, and a bit of it. Prep baseline is an obvious DUH that shouldn't have taken this long to figure out. Deadly Throw buff is fine, different class is different. Warriors got their ranged interrupt nerfed because our uptime is currently ridiculous, even without it now. Rogues? Not so much. Peeling a rogue is a joke, they lack the amount of gap closers we have, and actually need the ranged interrupt, as currently I believe any and every caster has their way with rogues. Marked for Death is a buff to their burst, sure. But rogues burst wasn't taking anyone by surprise, hell I barely would ever even use a Defensive CD against a rogue unless they popped something sub-35% on me. And along with gaining a ranged interrupt, it would appear they turned around and nerfed Burst of Speed, making a rogue easier to snare.

I'm honestly going to need you to explain in detail how they were overbuffed. I also ask, have you played with/against a rogue on the PTR? Have you seen monks and rogues just running through people?

read the patch notes and arena junkies "best pvpers post there" here is one example of a new OP rogue talent and yes it will be OP.

New Level 60 Talent: Cloak and Dagger
Ambush, Garrote, and Cheap Shot now have a 30 yard range, and will cause the Rogue to teleport behind the target.

this is lol-think how many rogues will just teleport all over the place if this change goes threw.its like having 3 30 yard gap closers.so i ask you do you think rogues will have low up time with this change?thats why you said rogues need the deadly throw buff right?its the same old song and dance,take a warrior ability away from warriors "herioc throw".then give a new/better version of it to another class "deadly throw".

[Redlikemyrage]

read the patch notes and arena junkies "best pvpers post there" here is one example of a new OP rogue talent and yes it will be OP.

New Level 60 Talent: Cloak and Dagger
Ambush, Garrote, and Cheap Shot now have a 30 yard range, and will cause the Rogue to teleport behind the target.

this is lol-think how many rogues will just teleport all over the place if this change goes threw.its like having 3 30 yard gap closers.so i ask you do you think rogues will have low up time with this change?thats why you said rogues need the deadly throw buff right?its the same old song and dance,take a warrior ability away from warriors "herioc throw".then give a new/better version of it to another class "deadly throw".

I still don't see how them receiving needed gap closers is an overbuff? I don't really care what sites like arena junkies say. Fact remains, PvPers are never, EVER a good source for unbiased class analysis. That's because people who are focused on PvP can never look past the small things they lose that may (or, in fairness, may not) help achieve better balance. They just see their shiny new toy (i.e. Gag Order, new to MoP, and completely overpowered when coupled with all of the warrior's other abilities) taken from them and they are up in arms. Don't get me wrong. My main is a warrior, and it is my most beloved class, through and through. I don't like getting nerfed any better than anyone else. But please raise your heads from the sand and realize that A.) Nerfs were needed and B.) Citing a PvP-focused site with discussion to balance is absurd strictly based on human nature.

I mean, look at yourself, you are doing exactly what I've described. Your arguments are all based around what got taken, and why its unfair to give to someone else. You have little concern for real actual balance and just insist that our class stays buffed, even if we are overpowered. Come back once 5.2 drops at least, complain then when we are bottom of the barrel. But based on your input on this topic, I think you would benefit us all if you stopped trying to "analyze" the patch notes and call out OP, and would just sit back and wait.

[cFortyfive]

and would just sit back and wait.

Well sitting back and waiting didn't work out too well the last two expansion if I might be a reminder of that.

[Redlikemyrage]

Well sitting back and waiting didn't work out too well the last two expansion if I might be a reminder of that.

You're taking it out of context. I meant he individually needs to sit back and wait, as he has nothing beneficial to add to this conversation, just cleverly disguised QQ hidden behind a wall of text. Big bad Blizzard took all our new, and admittedly OP, moves and changed/removed them and he's not taking it well.

If anything, we need tonot sit back and wait. The warrior community has a history of just quietly accepting everything that gets thrown at us. But honestly, this patch does not appear to be the time we need to grab our pitchforks and march on over to the official forums and demand buffs.

[Pua]

Oh, my bad. I'm assuming Thylacine is talking about Protection when i see him post. But yeah, as DPS i can see second wind being a lot more useful, especially considering you don't have last stand to use together with ER and that you don't have that kind of dedicated healing on you in all situations.

Yeah, talking about DPS. :P

That said, it could be argued (as Redlikemyrage does) that Fury is enraged enough of the time for the resource cost of Enraged Regeneration not to matter. For me, however, my healers have gotten used to me dipping low and Second Wind plus Defensive Stance taking care of me. After all, it tends to be the pulsing damage that threatens damage dealers where, for tanks, you're taking those big hits that effectively nullify what Second Wind is good for; particularly in heroic content.

I agree. I don't PvP and it really pisses me off that they make the changes to quiet the pvpers down while killing it for us in PVE. This is why i have hated arena since day 1.

The Shockwave Nerf really bugs me.

This is why Arms is such a broken spec - it's horribly weak in PvE, but too strong in PvP, with just about any change to one side of the game having a detrimental impact on the other. Shockwave is far from too strong in raiding content, but a 20 second AoE Kidney Shot is unbelievably good in PvP. Too good.

Personally, I think they've already ditched Arms in PvE for MoP. Nothing far short of an overhaul will fix it now, and they're unlikely to go for that mid-expansion.

[Redlikemyrage]

Yeah, talking about DPS. :P

That said, it could be argued (as Redlikemyrage does) that Fury is enraged enough of the time for the resource cost of Enraged Regeneration not to matter. For me, however, my healers have gotten used to me dipping low and Second Wind plus Defensive Stance taking care of me. After all, it tends to be the pulsing damage that threatens damage dealers where, for tanks, you're taking those big hits that effectively nullify what Second Wind is good for; particularly in heroic content.



This is why Arms is such a broken spec - it's horribly weak in PvE, but too strong in PvP, with just about any change to one side of the game having a detrimental impact on the other. Shockwave is far from too strong in raiding content, but a 20 second AoE Kidney Shot is unbelievably good in PvP. Too good.

Personally, I think they've already ditched Arms in PvE for MoP. Nothing far short of an overhaul will fix it now, and they're unlikely to go for that mid-expansion.

Good point here, we can all remember Dragon Soul/Season 11 where Arms was better than Fury for PvE, but we were weak as a whole in PvP, to the point of being near worthless outside of FC bitch.

I feel it is truly either one or the other with Arms, and I'm personally just going to accept that, as I enjoy Fury and Arms both. Hell, I really just love warriors, but that's beside the point.

[cFortyfive]

You're taking it out of context. I meant he individually needs to sit back and wait, as he has nothing beneficial to add to this conversation, just cleverly disguised QQ hidden behind a wall of text. Big bad Blizzard took all our new, and admittedly OP, moves and changed/removed them and he's not taking it well.

Well no offense but I do not exactly see anything beneficial coming out of this either but a whole lot of "QQ" how overpowered every single ability is and how glad people are to see them nerfed.

Yeah, talking about DPS. :P

That said, it could be argued (as Redlikemyrage does) that Fury is enraged enough of the time for the resource cost of Enraged Regeneration not to matter. For me, however, my healers have gotten used to me dipping low and Second Wind plus Defensive Stance taking care of me. After all, it tends to be the pulsing damage that threatens damage dealers where, for tanks, you're taking those big hits that effectively nullify what Second Wind is good for; particularly in heroic content.

I assume that this is about 10 mans ? I never see second wind really heal a meaningful amount in 25 man raids which is also my main problem with the nerf in the first place.

[Redlikemyrage]

Well no offense but I do not exactly see anything beneficial coming out of this either but a whole lot of "QQ" how overpowered every single ability is and how glad people are to see them nerfed.

If the no offense was directed at me, no worries, none taken. I've read plenty of your posts and you have intelligent and useful thoughts and opinions to bring to most discussions you participate in. So don't worry about offending me I'm just enjoying the overall discussion, and I have a tough skin. I do play a warrior, after all :P

But I digress.

Anyway, I'm nowhere near glad to see them nerfed. Who doesn't enjoy being overpowered? I know I do. I loved every second of the OP'ness that was warriors at MoP launch. Absolutely reveled in it. But when the nerfs came, as we knew they all would, I didn't QQ one bit once I took a step back and really looked at why the changes were happening. I understand the need for them then, and now.

The discussion should be about whether or not warriors are going to be fine in 5.2, which most people seem to think we will be. If we aren't going to be, we would all benefit from people actually discussing why they aren't going to be, not that X class is getting Y ability and it's kind of like our old one. A lot of vacuum analyzing is being done over the nerfs to warriors. But as a whole, how will we be? That's where we should steer this thread.

I assume that this is about 10 mans ? I never see second wind really heal a meaningful amount in 25 man raids which is also my main problem with the nerf in the first place.

I'm not sure his answer exactly, but I know I only speak from a 10 man perspective, as that is the only level I raid at.

[Flaks]

I have two concerns for the 5.2 warrior:

1. Our healing tier is very weak. Second wind will STILL reign supreme just because of how bad the other two options are (for pvp).
2. We'll be just as CC-susceptible as we were in 4.3. After the avatar nerf we already saw a major loss to our grip. The effect this change has had won't be visible until 5.2 and then we'll see that warriors are once again a class that charges in, deals maybe 1-2 seconds worth of damage and then is slowed/rooted/cc'd into oblivion.

[hasslehoof]

They nerfed the Glyph because it's pretty much mandatory in pve in almost every situation, and that's not the point of Glyphs.

Now if only they fixed Glyphs for all classes...

[Sarthan]

All I see is nerf nerf nerf.

Also OP you like like 30 minutes away from me.

[Crispin]

Lol. With these changes we can officially say "Hi, Cataclysm". Whiners got what they wanted, warriors will be once again a doll any class with any skill can butcher any time.

lol, easy on the dramaqueen reaction.

Warriors are still fine, and shockwave still needs to be addressed, heck I don't see why they dont improve the threat gen on thunderclap, and put shockwave inline with similair abilities.

as in a 1 min cd. and reduce the damage on it, it's far too strong as it is.


I personally think they ruined Warriors in this expac so far, I actually liked mine in Cata, I hate playing some easy mode fotm "hit 4 CD's and faceroll" class, warriors have been overtuned a few times before, but they've mainly been strong with a healer, and mobility have been a weak point.

Atm they are their own pocket healers and their mobility is better than any other class, their cc is better than rogues, which is just mindblowing

[Kankipappa]

lol, easy on the dramaqueen reaction.

Warriors are still fine, and shockwave still needs to be addressed, heck I don't see why they dont improve the threat gen on thunderclap, and put shockwave inline with similair abilities.

as in a 1 min cd. and reduce the damage on it, it's far too strong as it is.


I personally think they ruined Warriors in this expac so far, I actually liked mine in Cata, I hate playing some easy mode fotm "hit 4 CD's and faceroll" class, warriors have been overtuned a few times before, but they've mainly been strong with a healer, and mobility have been a weak point.

Atm they are their own pocket healers and their mobility is better than any other class, their cc is better than rogues, which is just mindblowing

And then again we go more to the direction of "shockwave should be useless without recklessness and colossus", while it should be that instead shockwave shouldn't get any benefit from colossus. Without stacking those with avatar it won't do anything mindblowing, since it currently hits around 25-30k on PvE without AP buffs/trinkets - why would you want to tune it to be lower than that? Hitting less than a melee attack with 1min cooldown? Please. Maybe it scales too well from AP and the unbuffed hit is actually too low, or colossus with extra arp adjusts it too much? Ever thought of that?

People would just use Dragon roar 99% of the time if it would go out like that. I'm betting most are gonna ditch it even as it is now with 40s cd to be honest. Also I don't know what people are really smoking, because outside shockwave (what DR's with other stuns btw exept charge), what other great CC does warrior have? 8s 5-target AoE fear what breaks on damage and a disarm? Plus charge stun what's more like interrupt without spell lock? Well at least warbringer is getting some love next patch it seems, so it will be the more obvious choice for everyone.

Rogues do have stuff like smoke bomb. When they tunnel all their cc's inside it, you can't really save the guy getting stuffed in either at 3v3, so I can't really see how warrior shockwave suddently makes all other cc's in the game that stronger than "everything else", when it can also miss. The current incoming "hit more targets than 2 and you get 20s cd lowered on shockwave" is also bad design, because what if you completely miss with it because of lag - you're still getting 40s CD? Everyone else at least got fixed chance on getting the guy CC'd without having the need to even target "where they shoot", so that's why the cd's are also usually longer. Stormbolt is just a fine example of that...

If people really want to go to the direction "nerf everything to the ground that warrior can only do useful stuff with recklessness" - fine then, make the recklessness have something like 1min CD then for all I care. Stacking the strong buffs is still the reason for broken damage, not the skills themself.

[Pua]

1. Our healing tier is very weak. Second wind will STILL reign supreme just because of how bad the other two options are (for pvp).

This has been my complaint since beta. Part of the reason I tend to take Second Wind in PvE is because the other two options are so poor. I can accept that our healing isn't meant to be great compared to other classes, but why not just make Blood Craze or Enraged Regeneration baseline and then make the second tier entirely different?

It's genuinely worrying that Blood Craze was reviled for being so weak in Cataclysm, yet most warriors would kill for it nowadays. That highlights just how weak our second tier is.

2. We'll be just as CC-susceptible as we were in 4.3. After the avatar nerf we already saw a major loss to our grip. The effect this change has had won't be visible until 5.2 and then we'll see that warriors are once again a class that charges in, deals maybe 1-2 seconds worth of damage and then is slowed/rooted/cc'd into oblivion.

I disagree. With Shockwave nerfed, Bladestorm starts to look a little more interesting because I don't think there are many places where Dragon Roar will beat it. We also have Safeguard which breaks roots every 30 seconds, and the buff to Warbringer effectively saves us a GCD applying Piercing Howl. Add that to your trinket and Avatar on-use and I don't think we're looking anywhere near as bad as we were in 4.3.

[Nakkí]

then you were doing something wrong. its wonderful. free rage..

leap away and charge back in

Or do it right and glyph it for offensive use between gcd's and a direct DPS, coupled with CS.

[Deleted]

New Level 60 Talent: Cloak and Dagger
Ambush, Garrote, and Cheap Shot now have a 30 yard range, and will cause the Rogue to teleport behind the target.

this is lol-think how many rogues will just teleport all over the place if this change goes threw.its like having 3 30 yard gap closers.so i ask you do you think rogues will have low up time with this change?

You realize of course that all three of the mentioned abilities require stealth and that you give up Shadow-Step to get Cloak and Dagger, yes? As in, less mobility - not more.

The only time Cloak and Dagger would be really useful is during Shadow Dance or minimally with subterfuge+nerve strike.

[meathead]

I still don't see how them receiving needed gap closers is an overbuff? I don't really care what sites like arena junkies say. Fact remains, PvPers are never, EVER a good source for unbiased class analysis. That's because people who are focused on PvP can never look past the small things they lose that may (or, in fairness, may not) help achieve better balance. They just see their shiny new toy (i.e. Gag Order, new to MoP, and completely overpowered when coupled with all of the warrior's other abilities) taken from them and they are up in arms. Don't get me wrong. My main is a warrior, and it is my most beloved class, through and through. I don't like getting nerfed any better than anyone else. But please raise your heads from the sand and realize that A.) Nerfs were needed and B.) Citing a PvP-focused site with discussion to balance is absurd strictly based on human nature.

I mean, look at yourself, you are doing exactly what I've described. Your arguments are all based around what got taken, and why its unfair to give to someone else. You have little concern for real actual balance and just insist that our class stays buffed, even if we are overpowered. Come back once 5.2 drops at least, complain then when we are bottom of the barrel. But based on your input on this topic, I think you would benefit us all if you stopped trying to "analyze" the patch notes and call out OP, and would just sit back and wait.

i can tell you did not play "your warrior" very much in cata or last season,right?gag order has been in game for years and arms warriors could use it back in cata.so no its not new to MOP.i think its you that needs to get your head out of the sand since i can tell you play other classes besides warriors.i said some of the nerfs warriors got were needed,like tfb and the silence on pummel "but not on HEROIC THROW".so where do i need to get my head out of the sand?i guess blizz does not over buff and over nerf class leaving them broken or OP for hole x-pacs,do they?i have no reason to think blizz has nerfed warriors at every trun since mop started.only to end up oer nerfing us and leaving us cata bad.first its the new utility nerfed,then it the burst.wait thats sounds like cata to me,buts its mop now,that cant happen again can it?

" Citing a PvP-focused site with discussion to balance is absurd strictly based on human nature".

yeha is arena junkies so bad?the top pvpers in wow post there,its far better then mmo for pvp info.why am i sao wrong for telling you to read up on the rogue changes on arena junkies?so of the top rogues in the world are saying the new changes are over the top.hell even reckful is saying that and might even go back to his rogue,wonder why?but you say im wrong for reading arena junkies,why?

"I mean, look at yourself, you are doing exactly what I've described. Your arguments are all based around what got taken, and why its unfair to give to someone else. You have little concern for real actual balance and just insist that our class stays buffed, even if we are overpowered. Come back once 5.2 drops at least, complain then when we are bottom of the barrel. But based on your input on this topic, I think you would benefit us all if you stopped trying to "analyze" the patch notes and call out OP, and would just sit back and wait".

wtf are you even talking about?you are doign the same thing you claim im doing,thats giving your personal opinion.so it sok for you to say the nerfs warrior have gotten and will get are ok,but its not ok for me to disagree with them?yes im stating what has been taken from warrior since the start of mop and it makes me sick once you see the whole fuckign list.if you cant see blizz is slowly striping warriors of there ulilty we got in mop then your blind.do you realize that if the 2nd wind change goes threw it will only heal for about 1.7% health.down from 3%,all because bad pvpers cry about it.i dotn have to complain when warrior are bottom of the barrel again because i know how it works.i have been playing since mid BC,and anyone with half a brain can see it for them selfs.also what buffs are you even talking about?the buffs warriors got in mop are now gone.so how can they be overpowered if they already have been nerfed or removed from the game?

i think it would benefit us all if you stopped trying to "analyze" the patch notes and defend the rogue buffs while justifying every warrior nerf.see what i did there?if blizz does not ruin warriors in 5.2,5.3 will be where they overkill us.there not really much left blizz can nerf,so in 5.3 they will nerf cd stacking or something else,making warriors cata bad again.

---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 03:07 PM ----------

This has been my complaint since beta. Part of the reason I tend to take Second Wind in PvE is because the other two options are so poor. I can accept that our healing isn't meant to be great compared to other classes, but why not just make Blood Craze or Enraged Regeneration baseline and then make the second tier entirely different?

It's genuinely worrying that Blood Craze was reviled for being so weak in Cataclysm, yet most warriors would kill for it nowadays. That highlights just how weak our second tier is.



I disagree. With Shockwave nerfed, Bladestorm starts to look a little more interesting because I don't think there are many places where Dragon Roar will beat it. We also have Safeguard which breaks roots every 30 seconds, and the buff to Warbringer effectively saves us a GCD applying Piercing Howl. Add that to your trinket and Avatar on-use and I don't think we're looking anywhere near as bad as we were in 4.3.

there is more cc/slows/stuns in the game now "mop" then every before.has blizz removed them from the game?but they have reduced warriors ability to stay on a target,see my point?also why on earth would anyone taken BS,its been over nerfed and is only use is as a root breaker in pvp.BS is perfect example of how blizz over nerfs warriors ability's leaving them useless for years and years.

[ati87]

Well sitting back and waiting didn't work out too well the last two expansion if I might be a reminder of that.

And may I remind you that during the last season of WOTLK warriors where the only melee class capable of fighting against casters who at that point got so much haste that they could kill certain opponents in a few globals.....

Just because warriors where weak/average during a single season doesn't mean you where weak the entire expansion.

Before patch 5.1 warriors where already claiming that they would become the weakest class, hell warriors have been claiming that every single major patch.