The Enhancement Shaman DPS priority in 5.2

[Raiju]

But taking EB means you are forced to hardcast.

You might ignore most LB hardcasting scenarios (though MSVx4 is not really bad imo). With EB, you are forced to hardcast, since it's your most important rotation button.[COLOR="red"]

Once again, in a world where you EB is the strongest talent - you don't have to take it still. Just like you choose not to hardcast.

If you don't want bother to play optimally anyway why should it matter that this talent gives 1k more dps? You're already dropping 500+ from the lack of hardcasting.

It wouldn't be the top talent in every situation even if it were top averaged. The other talents would likely still be competitive. Fact is you can probably find people in similar gear to you (general you not particularly at klatar) using different talents and doing similar/better dps, somewhere. Even if you do frequently hit high ranks. I know that I was ranking most nights in my guild (private logs) even when I use using EB or PE, while everyone else was using UF. I noticed a dps increase on some fights using UF, but I don't enjoy that talent as much so unless the kill is that tight I won't take it. There will be people who own my dps in my gear too, in fact I remember the rank 1 a couple months ago now being in similar gear to what I had on elegon.

[nazrakin]

Once again, in a world where you EB is the strongest talent - you don't have to take it still. Just like you choose not to hardcast.

If you don't want bother to play optimally anyway why should it matter that this talent gives 1k more dps? You're already dropping 500+ from the lack of hardcasting.

It wouldn't be the top talent in every situation even if it were top averaged. The other talents would likely still be competitive. Fact is you can probably find people in similar gear to you (general you not particularly at klatar) using different talents and doing similar/better dps, somewhere. Even if you do frequently hit high ranks. I know that I was ranking most nights in my guild (private logs) even when I use using EB or PE, while everyone else was using UF. I noticed a dps increase on some fights using UF, but I don't enjoy that talent as much so unless the kill is that tight I won't take it. There will be people who own my dps in my gear too, in fact I remember the rank 1 a couple months ago now being in similar gear to what I had on elegon.

I'm confused by this response. You're the one that tried to deride other people's preferred play styles as "suboptimal" because they hate hard casting. They are already choosing to play for enjoyment vs eeking out a few extra DPS, and many have said they'd still pick UF if EB was on top.

[Raiju]

I'm confused by this response. You're the one that tried to deride other people's preferred play styles as "suboptimal" because they hate hard casting. They are already choosing to play for enjoyment vs eeking out a few extra DPS, and many have said they'd still pick UF if EB was on top.

People have been against EB buffs because they don't like hardcasting, read the thread. Also what you mean tried?

[ohiostate124]

I have a quick question. I played and enhance shaman as an alt in cata and ive finally got around to lvling it. Would the EM/PE combo make the rotation pretty much the same as it was? Just looking at it, i kind of like those choices the best, especially if the cd on EM is being reduced in 5.2.

[Glyphtics]

I have a quick question. I played and enhance shaman as an alt in cata and ive finally got around to lvling it. Would the EM/PE combo make the rotation pretty much the same as it was? Just looking at it, i kind of like those choices the best, especially if the cd on EM is being reduced in 5.2.

Well you add in an extra button every minute, but more or less yes. Echo / UF makes the rotation more or less exactly the same also.

[Gravemind]

Well you add in an extra button every minute, but more or less yes. Echo / UF makes the rotation more or less exactly the same also.

Actually in Cata, SS and LL were above MW5LB whereas now, MW5LB is above both SS and LL, making it more similar to Wrath, with the exception of UE being at the top above it.

[nazrakin]

People have been against EB buffs because they don't like hardcasting, read the thread.

Really? Feel free to point out all these "people" because I have not seen that at all. I see tons of hatred for the mechanic of hard casting, but I don't see anyone saying EB should never be buffed. Klatar is simply explaining why he think 5.2 EB is still weaker.

Also what you mean tried?

Meaning it was a horribly unpersuasive argument. What is most ironic is that in your world of optimal play styles, yours is even further down the line.

[Deleted]

Once again, in a world where you EB is the strongest talent - you don't have to take it still. Just like you choose not to hardcast.

If you don't want bother to play optimally anyway why should it matter that this talent gives 1k more dps? You're already dropping 500+ from the lack of hardcasting.

It wouldn't be the top talent in every situation even if it were top averaged. The other talents would likely still be competitive. Fact is you can probably find people in similar gear to you (general you not particularly at klatar) using different talents and doing similar/better dps, somewhere. Even if you do frequently hit high ranks. I know that I was ranking most nights in my guild (private logs) even when I use using EB or PE, while everyone else was using UF. I noticed a dps increase on some fights using UF, but I don't enjoy that talent as much so unless the kill is that tight I won't take it. There will be people who own my dps in my gear too, in fact I remember the rank 1 a couple months ago now being in similar gear to what I had on elegon.

What? Can you even read or understand what i am writing?

Hardcasting LB is necessary to some extent. Additionally hardcasting EB is a choice that you have to do.

Most simply don't like that play style so they don't.

And as far as sims tell, hardcasting EB is a dps decrease because of that mechanic not fitting enhancers playstyle.

EB is still the weakest talent by far. Without mechanical changes, it will stay the weakest talent forever.

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 10:51 AM ----------

People have been against EB buffs because they don't like hardcasting, read the thread. Also what you mean tried?

Completely non sense. Noone has been against EB buffs.

All theys keep telling you is that it doesn't Enhancers playstyle so even if it was competitive, we wouldn't take it unless it's a real dps increase.

The emchanical changes are necessary to make it competitive. In a few days, we will ahve simulation craft running (most chnages are already implemented, have to wait for the version going live). But EB was only a 4k dps increase, UF was 11k increase in 5.1.

Nerfing some LB bonus damage and giving EB an agi procc won't make up that difference, not even close. I suspect Simcraft showing it still a 5k dps dcrease, which is a lot.

[NPSlow]

I love Elemental Blast. It gives enhance the feeling I used to love of casting Lava Burst in Firelands, but it actually scales with maelstrom stacks so I'm not constantly trying to sneak a full cast in. It hits just as hard as Lava Burst used to as well, it's incredible fun.

That being said, even before the 5.2 buffs it does competitive damage. My first night playing with the talent I nearly ranked on 25m Heroic Feng. Something along the lines of 110k dps.

The casting-melee niche is a playstyle I'm so glad that Blizzard finally supports. They did a great job with this talent IMO.

[Deleted]

I love Elemental Blast. It gives enhance the feeling I used to love of casting Lava Burst in Firelands, but it actually scales with maelstrom stacks so I'm not constantly trying to sneak a full cast in. It hits just as hard as Lava Burst used to as well, it's incredible fun.

That being said, even before the 5.2 buffs it does competitive damage. My first night playing with the talent I nearly ranked on 25m Heroic Feng. Something along the lines of 110k dps.

The casting-melee niche is a playstyle I'm so glad that Blizzard finally supports. They did a great job with this talent IMO.

So a few people like it. It doesn'T solce the problem that you could easily do 5k dps more with an other talent.

[NPSlow]

So a few people like it. It doesn'T solce the problem that you could easily do 5k dps more with an other talent.

I don't believe that will be the case for much longer with the changes to the 90 talents.
Plus I think a lot of the DPS loss people experience comes from unfamiliarity with the talent.

Although I agree with you UE on cd and auto attacks are much 'easier' thankfully an option exists for people who prefer ease of use.

[Nurabashi]

EB will need to be a major upgrade for me to even consider taking it.

[TecPontificates]

I wish threads like this didn't always devolve into soapbox opinions about the playstyle and stayed focused on the theorycrafting.

Does anyone have any mathematical data to suggest EB is even a possible contender before we post another 2 pages of whining about whether hardcasting or not "fits the playstyle?"

From some napkin numbers and a lot of handwaving it strikes me that with the addition of agility EB is still inferior. The only change that I see is the fact that 25% of the time you get a buff that is possibly competitive to the buff you gain every time you cast UE with UF (which happens every 15 seconds like clockwork). As it stands, the buffs to our secondaries are not good enough to take the talent, so adding into the mix a buff that might be good enough 25% of the time does not impress me.

And of course it does not scale, while UF does. LS will continue to hit harder as my gear improves and so will my LB (and thus the 20% bonus to it from the UF talent).

And of course it introduces a hardcast mechanic into our rotation which has an RNG factor that will deprive us of white hits periodically, further reducing our damage.

There's really no point in suggesting how EB could be improved to make it a choice on these forums which the devs don't read. We should keep the discussion to what we see in the patch notes, not our own personal fantasies about what the spell should be.

[Deleted]

I don't believe that will be the case for much longer with the changes to the 90 talents.
Plus I think a lot of the DPS loss people experience comes from unfamiliarity with the talent.

Although I agree with you UE on cd and auto attacks are much 'easier' thankfully an option exists for people who prefer ease of use.

Sims have no problem using it. It just strictly follows the priority and the priority is right.

And for now, in my not BIS gear, it's 6k behind. UFnerf is a 600 dps loss, but the EB buff is really minor. You just get a man stat proc instead of a secondary stats procc, which equals about 1900 agi every 50 sec for 8 sec -> 8/ 50 * 1900 = 304 static agi -> 1200 dps gain.

So in my actual gear, it would be 6000 - 600- 1200 = 4.2k dps ahead.

Consider how poorly EB scales, it will be much more in BIS T14 gear and even more in T15.

That#s just the estimated dps effect based on stat weights and so on.

[NPSlow]

I wish threads like this didn't always devolve into soapbox opinions about the playstyle and stayed focused on the theorycrafting.

Does anyone have any mathematical data to suggest EB is even a possible contender before we post another 2 pages of whining about whether hardcasting or not "fits the playstyle?"

From some napkin numbers and a lot of handwaving it strikes me that with the addition of agility EB is still inferior. The only change that I see is the fact that 25% of the time you get a buff that is possibly competitive to the buff you gain every time you cast UE with UF (which happens every 15 seconds like clockwork). As it stands, the buffs to our secondaries are not good enough to take the talent, so adding into the mix a buff that might be good enough 25% of the time does not impress me.

And of course it does not scale, while UF does. LS will continue to hit harder as my gear improves and so will my LB (and thus the 20% bonus to it from the UF talent).

And of course it introduces a hardcast mechanic into our rotation which has an RNG factor that will deprive us of white hits periodically, further reducing our damage.

There's really no point in suggesting how EB could be improved to make it a choice on these forums which the devs don't read. We should keep the discussion to what we see in the patch notes, not our own personal fantasies about what the spell should be.

I must have missed the part where a Nature damage spell won't scale with my gear.

I also disagree with your opinions. If it's possible to rank on heroic 25 fights with the way the talent is now, how can you honestly believe nothing will change when it is buffed in conjunction with an Unleash Fury nerf? That's not personal fantasies, those are numbers.

Edit - another person saying Elemental Blast doesn't scale with gear, I'm sure I must be missing something now. Also I'm getting the impression people forget the spell actually does damage in addition to the buffs it provides :^)

[Deleted]

I must have missed the part where a Nature damage spell won't scale with my gear.

I also disagree with your opinions. If it's possible to rank on heroic 25 fights with the way the talent is now, how can you honestly believe nothing will change when it is buffed in conjunction with an Unleash Fury nerf? That's not personal fantasies, those are numbers.

Edit - another person saying Elemental Blast doesn't scale with gear, I'm sure I must be missing something now. Also I'm getting the impression people forget the spell actually does damage in addition to the buffs it provides :^)

The damage itself scales ofc, but the stat bonus will remain static even as our gear improves.

[nazrakin]

I wish threads like this didn't always devolve into soapbox opinions about the playstyle and stayed focused on the theorycrafting.

Does anyone have any mathematical data to suggest EB is even a possible contender before we post another 2 pages of whining about whether hardcasting or not "fits the playstyle?"

From some napkin numbers and a lot of handwaving it strikes me that with the addition of agility EB is still inferior. The only change that I see is the fact that 25% of the time you get a buff that is possibly competitive to the buff you gain every time you cast UE with UF (which happens every 15 seconds like clockwork). As it stands, the buffs to our secondaries are not good enough to take the talent, so adding into the mix a buff that might be good enough 25% of the time does not impress me.

And of course it does not scale, while UF does. LS will continue to hit harder as my gear improves and so will my LB (and thus the 20% bonus to it from the UF talent).

And of course it introduces a hardcast mechanic into our rotation which has an RNG factor that will deprive us of white hits periodically, further reducing our damage.

There's really no point in suggesting how EB could be improved to make it a choice on these forums which the devs don't read. We should keep the discussion to what we see in the patch notes, not our own personal fantasies about what the spell should be.

The thread didn't devolve into a soapbox about play styles, that's strictly what the OP asked for.

[Deleted]

My Dps priority will stay the same in 5.2, because I'll be using EotE/UF. It just feels right combo for Enhancement.
PE in my opinion is horrible; boost to to FeT/EeT dmg and new skins for both. On a 5min cd.... lame as f*ck.
EB isn't that bad at all, it is my off spc talent of choice. When the lvl 90 talents were introduced I was kinda disappointed... Back then UF was only talent that I liked, and I still love it. Even tho it's "passive", it just flavors the rotation.

[Deleted]

On a 5min cd.... lame as f*ck.

Can any1 tell if its really still that bad for fights that reqires high burst (or AoE maybe)?

And if any1 knows, how exactly does prime elementals benefit from haste cds like elemental mastery or BL???

[Deleted]

This thread shows the entire intention around having different talent choices/playstyles. People who want to do the maximum dps will take the strongest talents regardless of any personal preference, while others will choose to stick with what they know and like to play with.

Pretty good job by Blizzard in my opinion, and it is nice to see people taking a range of talents - personally, I'm in the camp that goes for maximum dps. Note that this will likely change on a fight per fight basis, as it should be. Example being on fights with a large AoE component, EotE would probably be the go-to talent