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  1. #1

    No VP + system for 5.2 raid discussion

    https://twitter.com/Dristereau/statu...19807056019457

    I personally like the system being inactive for 5.2 makes the T14H upgraded gear bis until T15H and very satisfied my hard work pays of a little longer.

    Also lets us spend valor on the new Kirin tor rep items and the shado pan 5.2 RAID rep. Which i think was the true motive behind this change. You know so people get excited about new rep tiers and can spend it on upgrades vs saving it for +2/2 for a raid drop.

    However i'd hope they have something alternative to purchase because hardcapping VP when you no longer need rep items feels pointless. Perhaps we can purchase the new blacksmithing lightning forge bars?
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-01-06 at 12:46 AM.

  2. #2
    T15 may or may not be better than T14H gear. I think they want to introduce item upgrades every other patch as an indirect nerf to current raiding tier. Like being able to upgrade T15 in 5.3 to help with T15 content.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Marooned View Post
    T15 may or may not be better than T14H gear. I think they want to introduce item upgrades every other patch as an indirect nerf to current raiding tier. Like being able to upgrade T15 in 5.3 to help with T15 content.
    Wrathion questline indicates 5.1 was the odd man out and you shouldn't expect any other non raid patches.
    I could see them turning the system on again 1/2 way through the tier when VP is completely useless for most raiders

    I doubt T15 normal mode gear will jump from 496 HoF to 517 ToT +21 ilvls expect a +13 jump only

    That 524 H:elite gear looks mighty beasty now....
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-01-06 at 12:56 AM.

  4. #4
    I don't see the purpose in getting rid of the current item level increase in the next tier, beyond the first month or two anyways...I guess it would make sense to delay it. Gives people something to spend their VP on for pretty much the whole tier, no matter what your progress is, and it's a nice gap-filler if your luck isn't the best with a particular item slot (like a weapon for example). But after a certain amount of time, people won't need the VP rep gear anymore and I don't see why not allowing t15 gear to be upgraded after said certain amount of time. Again, it beats the shit out of nerfing encounters which doesn't need to be done.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Wrathion questline indicates 5.1 was the odd man out and you shouldn't expect any other non raid patches.
    I could see them turning the system on again 1/2 way through the tier when VP is completely useless for most raiders

    I doubt T15 normal mode gear will jump from 496 HoF to 517 ToT +21 ilvls expect a +13 jump only

    That 524 H:elite gear looks mighty beasty now....
    It is likely to jump to at least ilvl 515 or 516. For the last 3 tiers, the new tier normal mode items have always been 6 ilevels above the heroic gear from the previous tier (end boss higher ilevel stuff excluded. Protectors elite is the equivalent to that this tier). If anything the existence of VP upgraded gear may push them to make the ilevel jump any higher.

    Normal Firelands gear - 378
    Heroic Firelands gear - 391
    Heroic Rag gear - 397
    Normal DS gear - 397
    Heroic DS gear - 410

    It's highly likely the NM gear will at least match Protectors Elite/fully upgraded heroic T14.

  6. #6
    shado pan 5.2 RAID rep
    I haven't done the PTR thing yet as it's still DLing, but when you mention shado-pan rep... that's the one we've grinded out now or a brand new shado-pan related Raid rep from the 5.2 raid?

    and likewise for myself I am nearly BiS on my toon and welcome this change. Only need heroic protectors, but that is quite awhile for me since it requires ranged stacking and minimal amount of melee dps.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
    I haven't done the PTR thing yet as it's still DLing, but when you mention shado-pan rep... that's the one we've grinded out now or a brand new shado-pan related Raid rep from the 5.2 raid?
    It's a raid only rep, like you had for Molten Core, Temple of Ahn' Qiraj, Karazhan, Mount Hyjal, Black Temple, Icecrown and Firelands.


    It's like a sud division of Shado Pan, much in the same way Violet Eye was in regards to the Kirin Tor.
    My name is Cernunnos, I will love you like no other, I have died a thousand deaths, each time I died I thought of you.

  8. #8
    I'm fine with this. It's not like I'm gonna have the VP to upgrade my 5.2 gear any time soon. I'd rather spend it on actual VP gear.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Well, if the upgrade system is their idea to nerf raids instead of +5% each month, it's normal that it don't start until 5.3. So I'm ok with it. Specially if there are couple of interesting pieces to spend valor while it comes, trinkets mayhaps.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
    I haven't done the PTR thing yet as it's still DLing, but when you mention shado-pan rep... that's the one we've grinded out now or a brand new shado-pan related Raid rep from the 5.2 raid?

    and likewise for myself I am nearly BiS on my toon and welcome this change. Only need heroic protectors, but that is quite awhile for me since it requires ranged stacking and minimal amount of melee dps.
    Brand new "Shado pan Assault" or something like that

    Think of it like Hyjal rep, then firelands rep. Same group different reps.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 01:24 AM ----------

    I think I found the ilvl of new raid gear thanks to the... well the tyranical Gladiator gear that has been known forever.

    S12 ELITE weapon 490ilvl + 19 = 509
    S12 NORM weapon 470ilvl + 19 = 489
    S13 ELITE weapon 503ilvl + 19 = 522
    S13 NORM weapon 483ilvl + 19 = 502

    Ilvl from Normal - Heroic PvE is generally 13ilvls
    522-13 509Ilvl will be the Normal mode gear of 5.2 Inferior to 517 if you had 3k valor and been upgrading only heroic slots from start of 5.1 you will prolly have 1/3 of the items no upgraded and 509 is a huge boost to any single person raiding NORMAL mode T14.

    TLDR ~~ 509 is the Normal ilvl of 5.2 raids.

    http://www.wowhead.com/items=2.1
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-01-06 at 01:33 AM.

  11. #11
    The 502 gear is almost certainly the LFR gear. They have never brought out a new tier where the new normal mode gear is 7 ilevels below the previous tier heroic gear. Think about it - if they did that, it would force guilds to re-run T14 heroics for upgrades while waiting to get the new bosses down on heroic. It would also make upgraded 509 gear slightly beat T15 heroic gear. That makes 0 sense.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans Dristereau's Avatar
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    From what I make of the reply I think it means that all gear, including what we have upgraded already, will no longer be able to be upgraded. E.g. Item Upgrade Vendors removed, and the Item Upgrade option is slowly phased out. I asked how well Ghostcrawler believes it works present tense, but from the way he says 'how well it worked', makes me think they aren't happy with it how it currently works, and are having second thoughts. Personally I think that the cost is way too high, and the choice of whether to buy an item or just upgrade one piece is painful. WoW has always been about getting better gear, and upgrading kind of takes away the thrill of loot. Also Item Upgrade means that the already escalating Item Level will go through the roof by the end of the Expansion with Item Upgrade and raids being tuned around that.

    In terms of 5.2, the only Reputations known so far are the Kirin Tor Offensive and Sunreaver Onslaught for Alliance and Horde respectively. I expect them to have 500+ ilvl Valor Gear, around the same level as Throne of Thunder Normal Gear. Personally happy about the idea of PVP Gear not needing to be upgraded. Actually been doing some area this season and no where near geared as much as I want.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    The 502 gear is almost certainly the LFR gear. They have never brought out a new tier where the new normal mode gear is 7 ilevels below the previous tier heroic gear. Think about it - if they did that, it would force guilds to re-run T14 heroics for upgrades while waiting to get the new bosses down on heroic. It would also make upgraded 509 gear slightly beat T15 heroic gear. That makes 0 sense.
    No but 509 NORMAL MODE makes 100% sense. Consider this. 5.2 hits they turn the 30% nerf mode button on in the T14 raids. NORMAL MODE GUILDS can now obtain 509 gear from T14H and T15 makes both 100% relevent. T14 would even offer better gear that can be upgraded to help them push in T15H for again better gear.

    This way come 5.2 for atleast the 95% of WoW raiding community that aren't raiding Cutting edge heroic content BOTH tiers are quite viable to clear and with the 30% nerf mechanism activated it may even be doable for them.

    As far as carrot on a stick goes this is genius. Especially for letting NEW players see all content included in this expansion and the gear up process will be supplimented by this. I guarantee 10/25 pugs with a 30% buff active that offers competitive 496 UPGRADEABLE gear will be desireable when the LFR alternative for 5.2 is pretty much equivalent.

    This system is genius and good for everyone who plays the game. Especially alts, new players.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-01-06 at 01:39 AM.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    I'm glad they seem to scrap the idea of upgrades in 5.2. Was such a poorly thought out system. Made alts completely irrelevant both in pvp and pve, made offspecs irrelevant, and ramped up the barrier to entry in pvp so high, that it completely destroyed arena competition. Impossible to ever catch up on gear, let alone play another character.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Luminoth4 View Post
    From what I make of the reply I think it means that all gear, including what we have upgraded already, will no longer be able to be upgraded. E.g. Item Upgrade Vendors removed, and the Item Upgrade option is slowly phased out. I asked how well Ghostcrawler believes it works present tense, but from the way he says 'how well it worked', makes me think they aren't happy with it how it currently works, and are having second thoughts. Personally I think that the cost is way too high, and the choice of whether to buy an item or just upgrade one piece is painful. WoW has always been about getting better gear, and upgrading kind of takes away the thrill of loot. Also Item Upgrade means that the already escalating Item Level will go through the roof by the end of the Expansion with Item Upgrade and raids being tuned around that.

    In terms of 5.2, the only Reputations known so far are the Kirin Tor Offensive and Sunreaver Onslaught for Alliance and Horde respectively. I expect them to have 500+ ilvl Valor Gear, around the same level as Throne of Thunder Normal Gear. Personally happy about the idea of PVP Gear not needing to be upgraded. Actually been doing some area this season and no where near geared as much as I want.
    Or the items just don't have a 2/2 option tagged on them. far more likely how frustrating would it be to be ready to +vp a heroic weapon and then the patch comes and it's stuck at 1/2 that would be demoralizing.

    No the +vp Heroic items from T14H being better then T15 is great your accomplishments have a longer lasting impact. Especially on the newer tiers when pushing into heroic content. It will severaly reduce H guild dependency on split normal mode raids for better gear unless an overpowered set bonus or trinket is in there. But T14 pretty much has the OP trinkets and set bonus's already covered and prolly would had lasted anyhow.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 01:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mew View Post
    I'm glad they seem to scrap the idea of upgrades in 5.2. Was such a poorly thought out system. Made alts completely irrelevant both in pvp and pve, made offspecs irrelevant, and ramped up the barrier to entry in pvp so high, that it completely destroyed arena competition. Impossible to ever catch up on gear, let alone play another character.
    It wasn't a terrible idea. Perhaps the cost was too high. 500 woulda been far better imo.

    That is talking PvE though. I can see how this would destroy arena competition when the 2400+ teams get 3k + conquest a week and jack their gear up instantly vs the 1800 guy struggling when they face a team reset.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-01-06 at 01:45 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mew View Post
    I'm glad they seem to scrap the idea of upgrades in 5.2. Was such a poorly thought out system. Made alts completely irrelevant both in pvp and pve, made offspecs irrelevant, and ramped up the barrier to entry in pvp so high, that it completely destroyed arena competition. Impossible to ever catch up on gear, let alone play another character.
    It was a great idea to be able to spend JP on heroic gear to give you an edge. I don't really see the need to be able to pump up your top-end stuff even more though. It makes getting upgrades in raids much more difficult too. "Item X is better optimised for my spec, but my current gear has 2/2 upgrades, so It's better until I spend the VP to upgrade Item X (which means like a week and a half of VP to get it useful.)

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Dristereau's Avatar
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    @ anaxie,

    I think you're going a little too far. Ghostcrawler's reply seems state that the Item Upgrade option will be gone (Items Upgraded already will probably remain upgraded but the Etheral Upgraders will be gone). Also I'm not sure atm Normals will get a 30% nerf. There have been a lot of nerfs already. 5.2 offers what we already have, an outdoor raid boss to replace Sha for casuals (Nalak), Oodansta (Super Rex), and Throne of Thunder which is a 13 Boss raid (4 Installments of 3 on LFR, with Ra'den only available on Heroic). Nalak and Oodansta will drop Tyrannical PVP Pieces and Tier 15 Stuff like Galleon and Sha. 15 new bosses, and gear that will make normal raids easy enough. Something for everyone ^^
    Dristereau - Axxolentus - Infernus - Sequentia - Nulo - Desterrar

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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by blackblade View Post
    It was a great idea to be able to spend JP on heroic gear to give you an edge. I don't really see the need to be able to pump up your top-end stuff even more though. It makes getting upgrades in raids much more difficult too. "Item X is better optimised for my spec, but my current gear has 2/2 upgrades, so It's better until I spend the VP to upgrade Item X (which means like a week and a half of VP to get it useful.)
    That is just poor planning since VP is limited. Other then weapon you should of hoarded vp or upgraded a slot from the last bosses ull finish if your hardcapped : Tier helm, MSVH weapon

    get heroic gear and look at what vp is best spent on. You can only 2/2 2items a month hardcapping vp anyhow.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 01:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Luminoth4 View Post
    @ anaxie,

    I think you're going a little too far. Ghostcrawler's reply seems state that the Item Upgrade option will be gone (Items Upgraded already will probably remain upgraded but the Etheral Upgraders will be gone). Also I'm not sure atm Normals will get a 30% nerf. There have been a lot of nerfs already. 5.2 offers what we already have, an outdoor raid boss to replace Sha for casuals (Nalak), Oodansta (Super Rex), and Throne of Thunder which is a 13 Boss raid (4 Installments of 3 on LFR, with Ra'den only available on Heroic). Nalak and Oodansta will drop Tyrannical PVP Pieces and Tier 15 Stuff like Galleon and Sha. 15 new bosses, and gear that will make normal raids easy enough. Something for everyone ^^
    So they would remove vendors making Normal mode players not want to clear T14H for a chance to get upgradable gear with the 30% nerf active.

    Why would they do that exactly. It's the only thing that would keep the content relevent. They also said they don't plan on it for 5.2 they said nothing about removing the vendor. Don't be silly

  19. #19
    In my opinion, they're doing this to keep T14 relevant and bridge the tiers better. They know that they're springing T15 on us when most of us are still working on heroics. If T15 gear could be VP upgraded, a lot of guilds would abandon HoF and Terrace heroics, but with this system they have more incentive to go back and work on those bosses too. T14 was 16 bosses of progression. T15 is t13, but a lot of guilds will still have a few heroics from T14 left, so the tier will be about the same size.

    It's a great idea. I feel like they had this in mind when they made the VP system, to keep the previous tier relevant, and to give players something to look forward to every week while nerfing content incrementally instead of flat % nerfs.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    In my opinion, they're doing this to keep T14 relevant and bridge the tiers better. They know that they're springing T15 on us when most of us are still working on heroics. If T15 gear could be VP upgraded, a lot of guilds would abandon HoF and Terrace heroics, but with this system they have more incentive to go back and work on those bosses too. T14 was 16 bosses of progression. T15 is t13, but a lot of guilds will still have a few heroics from T14 left, so the tier will be about the same size.

    It's a great idea. I feel like they had this in mind when they made the VP system, to keep the previous tier relevant, and to give players something to look forward to every week while nerfing content incrementally instead of flat % nerfs.
    Right on the nose. Unlike other expansions guilds that don't clear previous tiers heroics will have incentives to try to down them during a new tier since the gear obtainable is better then the new tiers normal mode gear. Both compliment eachother.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 02:21 AM ----------

    Actually 5.2 raid gear is 7 ilvls ahead of our heroic raid gear. The gear they based it on was MogushanH rightfully so 502+7ilvl = 509 5.2 gear.

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