Patriotism and the Nation-State

[Grizzly Willy]

I would vote support, but the question is loaded by defining America, and American ideals, as pro-Republican. Given the nature of the GOP as it currently stands, no, I do not support this definition of America. However, the GOP does not represent America, nor should it in its current form. When they drop their social conservatism, maybe I'll reconsider. Until then I remain firmly in the libertarian camp, and support my nation for the people that are in it. I am not proud of my government, and I am not proud by much of the culture that this nation produces. I am proud of this nation's accomplishments, and support those who work to make progress a reality.

[Vivek]

As you may have noticed, many liberals have been attacking the idea of patriotism. They argue that there is no logical reason to support the nation-state and that patriotism is "evil," because it promotes the idea that America is "better" than other countries. I'd like to take a few moments to express my views on the subject and then allow everyone here to voice their opinion as well.

I support America because we are a right-wing country. America is not just a geographical landmass or a cultural group, America is an idea. Freedom, republican government, an armed populace and constitutionalism are at the forefront of this idea. America is the idea that everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed and fulfill the American Dream. I support America because I believe in this idea and I'm willing to fight for it if I must. Not every country in the world holds this is why I support the nation-state.

What do you think, is patriotism "evil" and/or "illogical?" And do you believe there is any reason to support the nation-state system?

Stinks of troll.

[bufferunderrun]

I think it mostly has to do with that Italy's exporting is mainly industrial products, whereas most Nordic countries are fairly diverse, with a mix of both industrial products, services and raw material.

no it's because the gov is a bunch of idiots especially that damn troll Berlusconi that ruined your credibility in the last 20 year . That said world politics right now is just Usa-China+Russia, all the other just follow without any true power, on the other hand if the Eu become a true federation it's weight on the world politics will be on par with the big guys.
Right now we are like grampa Simpson

[Deleted]

I'm sensing Dog-whistle politics over the whole "do you oppose the EU ?" part in the poll, but anyway. What does it mean to be a nationality? If you are Greek, do you support the government, or do you oppose everything the government has done for the last few decades? And what would you replace it with? America is heavily associated with capitalism, that is true, but I think the countrys origins and early identity is more complex than that. My country doesn't really have any coherent national identity either.

I guess the way I see it, the good stuff that comes out of a country should not be credited to the governments policies. I like many Victorian era novels, butI wouldn't idealize the Imperial colonial era, as fascinating as it would be to learn about. So generally I view national identity and patriotism as quite paradoxical.

[Chrysia]

Could your poll options be any more biased?

I'm a patriotic American. I believe in the ideals of social responsibility, regard for your neighbors, justice, freedom, and a government intended to work for it's people.

I am not "right-minded." I am "reason minded." Smaller government will almost always be more effective government. Focused, forward-thinking, and largely tangential to our day to day lives.

I also believe strongly that in todays' world, the idea of an armed citizenry serving as our primary line of defense is absurd. We need ICBMs and F15s, and those things do not belong in private hands.

I also believe, in the age of the nuclear family, people do need outside assistance from time-to-time, so support sane, limited welfare. (Note, that is not even close to what we have now.)

I believe that, good health being necessary to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that affordable healthcare should be provided to all citizens.

As you see, my ideals do not line up 100% with yours, but I still feel I am a patriot. That does not mean I am blind to the fact that the original framework provided by the founders has seen both necessary and unnecessary additions since the founding, since the founders were incapable of envisioning many of the changes that predicated those changes.

I'm not "un-American" for believing that the government cannot remain dogmatically wedded to 230 year old ideals.

[Wikiy]

Eh, this poll is so bad. I support both my country and the EU. I'm equally patriotic towards both.

[Deleted]

I'm European and I support both my country and the EU (but not as much in it's current format).

[Deleted]

This is true, but old rivalries die hard.

Have you seen what it's like when England play Germany at football?

No, to be honest I have not. But since you gave the example I'll presume it's some kind of mini-riot around the town where it's played.

So instead I'll give a counter argument, Dinamo Bucharest and Steaua Bucharest. 2 football teams from same town, same nation, same people. Yet whenever they play, their supporters fight on streets. Last time we had 2100 gendarmes and police officers trying to make sure they don't fight eachother, and they still burned a few things around. So football is football.

Overall I understand your point in a way, just that I don't agree with it.

[Catta]

no it's because the gov is a bunch of idiots especially that damn troll Berlusconi that ruined your credibility in the last 20 year . That said world politics right now is just Usa-China+Russia, all the other just follow without any true power, on the other hand if the Eu become a true federation it's weight on the world politics will be on par with the big guys.
Right now we are like grampa Simpson

God damn Swedes. Grampa knows whats up.

[Deleted]

The problem with patriotism is that ultimately, America was not founded on a singular set of ideals. The Founding Fathers were an extremely diverse bunch, something that makes their ability to form the US government a quite extraordinary feat. Saying that any single set of ideals fits all of their views is fairly inaccurate. You also have to remember that other people have their own image of what America means.

It's also interesting that one of the few concepts that the Founding Fathers in general agreed on was a complete lack of interaction with foreign governments (to varying degrees, of course). If the US did not choose to break out of this, however, the country would have never grown as powerful as it is today.

Lol, totally this. You shouldn't rely on ideas from centuries ago. The world looks totally different today than it did back then.
Not that a little bit of healthy patriotism is bad btw, due to some level ofcourse.
Oh and btw, I wanted to vote but my option is not there? I'm European, support my country AND support the EU.

[Deleted]

In your opinion. To me, having studied history and seen the repeated failure of 'small government', I would rather toss my lot in with the Oriental model of despotic monarchy and its descendants (i.e. centralized governments)

There's a difference between small government and limited government.

The further to the right you go, the more localized power becomes, which is more efficient because states compete with each other instead of becoming dependent on a central authority.

Having studied history myself, I am far more worried about big government when you consider that 100 million people were killed by governments in the 20th century alone.


You really do sound like a typical Democrat to me. They like the impossible dream of big government. It makes me glad that there have been Conservative Democrats too, but we'll see how long that lasts.

[Anakso]

I put the last option, other nationality and I oppose my country, but I don't really oppose it I just don't support it. I don't support any country over any other country with a few exceptions. The exceptions being countries I oppose and not countries I support. I don't support any country. If America were to go for a free for all war with Australia, Sweden and the UK (Just a random example, I know this won't actually happen xD) I wouldn't care who wins at all. I'd be against the war, so would prefer it if no war happened but given the final outcome I just would not care about the victor. I'd just move somewhere not in a war.

To sum up my feelings on patriotism. I do feel it's pointless and harmful to society as a whole. It's fine to oppose one country if you disagree with what it does but to specifically support one country over all others is kind of just asking for trouble in my opinion.

[Deleted]

The further to the right you go, the more localized power becomes, which is more efficient because states compete with each other instead of becoming dependent on a central authority.

So states trying to bring each other down is better ?
Let's not mention the idea that right = decentralization is far from true.. especially if you get out from America.

[Takamuri]

This may very well be the worst poll and reason given for a poll I have ever seen. Do you know what "Patriotism" is? It is ignorance, plain and simple. Blindly supporting your country instead of providing critical, constructive, criticism will only lead to the downfall of your country. You allow Government and Military to become unchecked, because "Patriotism," and they start getting away with more and more until it is far too late. Suddenly, the country you support is not what you thought it was, and there is no going back.

Also, America is not a 'right-wing' country. I have no idea where you got this idea from. Are you trying to define the country on a political scale? You cannot define where America is by using a 2D scale. We have policies all over the map, from war, healthcare, and economy, that you cannot use such a scale. If you are simply going based on the type of government we employ, we are a moderate country right smack dab in the middle, that is where true 'freedom' lies... where you don't have the government rationing food and water and assigning forced jobs (socialism) on the far left, and you don't have a fascist leadership making decisions primarily for the good of the ruling class on the far right.

[Deleted]

So states trying to bring each other down is better ?
Let's not mention the idea that right = decentralization is far from true.. especially if you get out from America.

It is true. The downside is that it leads to anarchy if we go too far to the right.

States competing with each other and trying to be better than each other is very efficient and can be done ethically.

Take the computer you are using at the moment for example. It was the product of competition I am sure.

[Deleted]

This may very well be the worst poll and reason given for a poll I have ever seen. Do you know what "Patriotism" is? It is ignorance, plain and simple. Blindly supporting your country instead of providing critical, constructive, criticism will only lead to the downfall of your country. You allow Government and Military to become unchecked, because "Patriotism," and they start getting away with more and more until it is far too late. Suddenly, the country you support is not what you thought it was, and there is no going back.

Patriotism is not loyalism, it's only that you love your country, your government has nothing to do with it.

[Takamuri]

Patriotism is not loyalism, it's only that you love your country, your government has nothing to do with it.

Your government is your country. It is the identifying factor common to every citizen of your country. If you say, "I am a patriotic American," you are saying you support your country, and you do it devotedly. If the US government was replaced, with the North Korean or Iran government, would you still say "I am a patriotic American?" Hell no you wouldn't, because being an American to you has to do with having a government in place that represents your interests. If your government is not representative of you, but still calls itself the United States of America, are you still going to be 'patriotic?' Why not? I thought you said it has nothing to do with your government?

You love your country because of how the government (and by extension, since we are a representative republic, the people) made it.

[Deleted]

Nationalists are dumbasses. They hate immigrants because of their culture and lifestyle, yet it's always been massive floods of immigrants that has made countries economic superpowers. For example, Sweden had a massive flood of immigrants from southern Europe during the 60s, and Sweden became one of the richest countries in the world because of the cheap workforce we got.

When immigrants assimilate into the prevailing culture then it's fine. We can take the positives out of their culture too. When they bring a culture that they escaped from here, it's not fine.

The Romans also relied on immigrant soldiers which marked their downfall. The cultural shift and lack of home grown soldiers was too much to bear. The Romans diluted their culture too much.

[Deleted]

pa·tri·ot·ism [pey-tree-uh-tiz-uh m or, esp. British, pa-]
devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

Your government is your country. It is the identifying factor common to every citizen of your country. If you say, "I am a patriotic American," you are saying you support your country, and you do it devotedly. If the US government was replaced, with the North Korean or Iran government, would you still say "I am a patriotic American?" Hell no you wouldn't, because being an American to you has to do with having a government in place that represents your interests. If your government is not representative of you, but still calls itself the United States of America, are you still going to be 'patriotic?' Why not? I thought you said it has nothing to do with your government?

It says national loyalty, I am loyal to my country. The government is not my country. Saying it's the identifying factor to every citizen in your country is just silly. So because I'm Swedish I'm suddenly a liberal just because our government is liberal? What I love about Sweden is the culture and it's history, our monarch and pop culture, not Fredrik Reinfeldt.

If I had a North Korean government I would be loyal to my country and would fight against the government because I want my country to be free.

When immigrants assimilate into the prevailing culture then it's fine. We can take the positives out of their culture too. When they bring a culture that they escaped from here, it's not fine.

I think few flee from their culture, I think they flee from either war that ravages their land, or the politics which in turn is influenced by the culture.

[Stir]

The Romans also relied on immigrant soldiers which marked their downfall. The cultural shift and lack of home grown soldiers was too much to bear. The Romans diluted their culture too much.

What..?
No; the Roman Empire failed because it was poisoning itself with lead, the general populace was rotting away, child mortality rates were incredibly high, there was no sanitation other than that for the wealthy, people got so much work that they couldn't even do their own cooking, let alone child rearing, and enemies were coming in from the East and the North, repeatedly sacking the heart of the empire.
Rome fell because of its arrogance, superstitions and stupidity. Not because of cultural 'diluting.'