Ghostcrawler tweet about 25 man, let the speculation begin!

[Thehealbus]

I don't see why they need to concern themselves with it too much tbh, guilds with the roster will do 25, guilds without it will do 10.

Because a significant portion of guild leadership have decided that running a 10 man guild is much easier, and it has cut down the non hardcore 25 man scene by to big a margin. It is very difficult to find a 25 man guild now days.

[Deleted]

GC has said if they could start all over again there would only be 15-player raids. I think it makes the most sense ... assuming perfect scaling from 5-players (1 tank, 1 heal, 3 dps to 3 tanks, 3 heals, 9 dps)

Have a source on that? Doubt it, considering he said no such thing. He addressed it as an idea, that is all.

Also, the composition wouldn't work like that. Considering they already have experience balancing 20 man content, they kill two birds with one stone. 15 man is just 10 man with 5 extra dps and maybe another healer. 25 mans would have to cut more players than 10 mans would have to recruit. Wouldn't make sense.

[Deleted]

The answer is Cross faction raiding.

[Count Zero]

Have a source on that? Doubt it, considering he said no such thing. He addressed it as an idea, that is all.

Also, the composition wouldn't work like that. Considering they already have experience balancing 20 man content, they kill two birds with one stone. 15 man is just 10 man with 5 extra dps and maybe another healer. 25 mans would have to cut more players than 10 mans would have to recruit. Wouldn't make sense.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...MoP-Screenshot

"Blizzard would have liked to do a 15 man raid size if they were starting from scratch today. However, for now they are sticking with both 10 and 25 man."

MMO Champ transcribing interviews (doesn't say who said each quote, so maybe it wasn't GC himself) from other Blizz-sanctioned news sites. Doesn't say which quotes are from which sites.

I realize it's not a direct source, but mmo-champ is credible, although I'd understand if you'd be skeptical / would consider the possibility of a transcription error (either by mmo-c or one of these other sites)

[fireywrath]

the idea that 25 mans are harder then ten man and should be rewarded is just plain wrong 10 man is really hard 25man is easy this tier if you have
1 dps who dies it is extremly hard to deal with it we only have 1 brez and every 25 man guild on my server has hardly any problems that 10 mans face with sertain
bosse's if any thing reward 10 player raiders. i 2 heal the spirit guy in mv. the encounters are very wierd for me as a holy / disc priest this tier for 10 man raiding
I'm 4/6 mv and first boss in heart of fear there needs to be improvements to both raid systems. Healyourmind on Perenolde 477

[Talen]

Fixed - If there were to be one size that fits in the middle, 20man would be it. Wouldn't mind, wouldn't like but meh.

More likely to be 10 if done in the middle of an Xpac as that means smallest degree of disruption.

However - there is no point getting rid of 25s; 10s are more popular and having 2 sizes splits the raiding community into two but 25s are the preferred size for LFR - which is what makes raid development worthwhile.

The reason people don't raid 25 man is simply because it's easier to raid 10 (Not the content, just to set up) - Raising the ilvl would be one way to fix this, but that would cause a shitstorm of QQ on the forums from 10 man players (probably including myself lol).

That's because there'd be too few players for 10s.

I'm interested in what they're going to do about it, it's fairly balanced right now in terms of drops and difficulty, the difference is just how hard it is to set up. I don't see why they need to concern themselves with it too much tbh, guilds with the roster will do 25, guilds without it will do 10.

Because the set up difficulties also mean fewer and fewer guilds form with that roster.

EJL

[Bloodline]

I've downsized my guild to 10 man because of logistical reasons halfway through Firelands. Imbalance on my previous realm caused any recruitment possibilities to disappear. It was taxing me personally, that's where I drew the line. I gathered my most skilled guildies that I knew weren't gold diggers and trusted enough and announced we downsized to 10s. Best decision ever. The current difficulty balance is just right for us. We progress at a decent pace and are competitive enough to be able to attract people when we need to. I like it, the team likes it. Same deal in Cataclysm. I don't intend to compete with 25 man guilds at all.

Maybe 25 man guilds are disappearing because just like the game, the social interaction and motives are changing. The game is being designed around attracting a wider audience. An audience that might be less motivated to commit to the upkeep of a 25 man guild.

I really hope that whatever changes they'll come up with won't force us out of our current situation. If that happens I think I have to tell my guildies to find a nice 25 man guild and the game ends for me there. I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is.

[Dranged]

I see so many suggestions in this thread, yet the only one I think would work is to revert back to the WotLK model of improved ilvl from 25m raids. Not completely different loot tables however, like it used to be, but identical loot with only the ilvl as difference. Kinda like we have with LFR today. I also think the shared lockout should be kept as it is.

And there would be no need for the 10m-fanbois to whine about this since it rly wouldn't affect them or their own raiding one single bit. Their gear, achievements, progress would still be the same. And it's already been stated time and time again that 10m guilds are not competing in the same bracket as their 25m counterparts - there are 2 different races.

This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.

[Abyssion]

I see so many suggestions in this thread, yet the only one I think would work is to revert back to the WotLK model of improved ilvl from 25m raids. Not completely different loot tables however, like it used to be, but identical loot with only the ilvl as difference. Kinda like we have with LFR today. I also think the shared lockout should be kept as it is.

And there would be no need for the 10m-fanbois to whine about this since it rly wouldn't affect them or their own raiding one single bit. Their gear, achievements, progress would still be the same. And it's already been stated time and time again that 10m guilds are not competing in the same bracket as their 25m counterparts - there are 2 different races.

This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.

And been told many many times this is a stupid idea, your idea is stupid, and it will never happen. 25's need to stop bitching. You already gear faster than 10's. Yuo see more of a loot table than 10's. More forgiving if you lose people, more cooldowns, better chance at having all the buffs.

Complain too damn much, 25's are fine. NOTHING needs to change.

[Gurbz]

NOTHING needs to change.

Many people in this thread disagree. So does Blizzard, for that matter, so something is changing. We just don't know what.

It has been pointed out a number of times that the advantages of running a 10-man far outweigh the difficulties in organizing a 25-man. The advantage in gearing speed (which is exaggerated by 10-man supporters, but downplayed by 25-man supporters) is not enough to offset the difference. Therefore, something needs to be done to equalize the two more and make 25s a more viable choice. I agree that it will probably not be an iLvl increase for 25s, as that will just swing things back the other way and 10s will start to die out like we saw in WotLK.

[Dranged]

And been told many many times this is a stupid idea, your idea is stupid, and it will never happen. 25's need to stop bitching. You already gear faster than 10's. Yuo see more of a loot table than 10's. More forgiving if you lose people, more cooldowns, better chance at having all the buffs.

Complain too damn much, 25's are fine. NOTHING needs to change.

You're just spewing out old shit again like a broken record on repeat. Also, you say "NOTHING needs to change". Sorry to break it to you kiddo, but blizzard themselves say otherwise, which is why this thread was created in the first place.

[EtherealMists]

I have subjected myself to about 25 of the current 32 pages in this thread, and I haven't seen the following suggestion to increasing 25 man participation:

Currently, many servers might say medium population, but rarely do you see that many people online. I know Blizzard makes money from realm transfers, but in order to increase raid participation and recreate a sense of community, they could start by combining servers from similar timezones. Take low to medium population servers, merge the player bases (and guilds, banks....) to one server, and save the money by decommissioning the other server. Many realms don't support 25 man raids because of the ease of getting 10 mans together, and the population to choose from. Merging realms to make them high-population would help increase the player base to draw from for guilds looking to recruit/PUG, and provide options to people looking for either a 10 or 25 man guild. With the number of people proposing CRZ for 25 man raids only, I feel this only makes sense. Another advantage of making servers high-population and getting rid of those low-medium population servers is getting rid of the CRZ's. With a higher population, most zones should have a decent population playing in them, limiting those resources required. (And hey, while they're at it, get rid of the Random Dungeon Finder but not LFR and make people actually work with others on their realm or their guild, but that's a totally different topic about re-establishing a community within WoW).

To take some of the logistical challenges out of a 25 man raid, the Cauldron should be brought back for them, along with creating feasts for 25 man creating 10 at a time for the increased mats. I know the mats are double the 10 man feast, but farming up the mats for a weeks worth of 25 man raids takes 3 full playing days assuming one person is making the feasts, and only 10 feasts are needed (16 farm plots, 5 veggies per pick). As for the cauldron, make it so that they can only be created in the raid instance by the raid leader, and the flasks are usable only within the raid instance. Take the onus off the alchemists in your group, and as the raid leader make people bring a flask each so that you can create 2. Hell, make the flasks last until you leave the raid instance, it's not like it matters that much.

[Talen]

I see so many suggestions in this thread, yet the only one I think would work is to revert back to the WotLK model of improved ilvl from 25m raids. Not completely different loot tables however, like it used to be, but identical loot with only the ilvl as difference. Kinda like we have with LFR today. I also think the shared lockout should be kept as it is.

And there would be no need for the 10m-fanbois to whine about this since it rly wouldn't affect them or their own raiding one single bit. Their gear, achievements, progress would still be the same. And it's already been stated time and time again that 10m guilds are not competing in the same bracket as their 25m counterparts - there are 2 different races.

This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.

If only that were correct. LK shows that viewpoint to be utterly wrong - players would flock to 25s in droves.

EJL

[Halifax]

This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.

It would make the 10 man "race" broken because some guilds would gear up in 25 man normal for the high item level gear, and then use that gear to progress faster in 10 man heroics, giving them an advantage over the people that wanted to only play their preferred format with their friends.

If this happens it would be the end of serious 10 man raiding. I know I would quickly join a 25 man guild, have a little less fun, so that my progress could remain relevant.

[Deleted]

I hope they bring back higher ilvl as 25man, but not 2 lockouts.

[Entyice]

I see so many suggestions in this thread, yet the only one I think would work is to revert back to the WotLK model of improved ilvl from 25m raids. Not completely different loot tables however, like it used to be, but identical loot with only the ilvl as difference. Kinda like we have with LFR today. I also think the shared lockout should be kept as it is.

And there would be no need for the 10m-fanbois to whine about this since it rly wouldn't affect them or their own raiding one single bit. Their gear, achievements, progress would still be the same. And it's already been stated time and time again that 10m guilds are not competing in the same bracket as their 25m counterparts - there are 2 different races.

This would in no way force 10m raiders to revert to 25m.

Top 10 man Raiders would abuse the Higher Ilvl's in 25 man to progress in 10 man.

A few 10 mans already farm 25's to funnel BIS to the core 10.
If more rewards are granted to 25's It will create a large disparity between ten man guilds.
Guilds with lots of resources will have a distinct advantage over other 10 mans regardless of skill levels.

This might be different in tier 15 since there is only one instance and no gating (that we know of)
however top 10 mans will still farm 25's during the normal mode week to gain advantages going into heroic's

[Radalek]

And been told many many times this is a stupid idea, your idea is stupid, and it will never happen. 25's need to stop bitching. You already gear faster than 10's. Yuo see more of a loot table than 10's. More forgiving if you lose people, more cooldowns, better chance at having all the buffs.

Complain too damn much, 25's are fine. NOTHING needs to change.

And then it was said a million times that those arguments are invalid. Yes, 25 man will always have all the buffs. But that's why 10 mans are designed around having less dps and hps requirements. You will always need less dps per person to meet enrage timer in 10 man but when 10 man manages to get all the buffs needed then suddenly it becomes much easier. 25 mans see more of a loot table? Last time I checked all the loot was completely the same. More cooldowns? Ofc there's more cooldowns, you need to take care of 25 not 10 people and dmg on the raid is higher.
And like someone said, it's not like people are bitching here and looking for a change. Check the blue posts, Blizzard acknowledged changes are needed and they are incoming so instead of saying it here to people try to say that to developers who started this at the first place.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 09:19 PM ----------

Top 10 man Raiders would abuse the Higher Ilvl's in 25 man to progress in 10 man.

A few 10 mans already farm 25's to funnel BIS to the core 10.
If more rewards are granted to 25's It will create a large disparity between ten man guilds.
Guilds with lots of resources will have a distinct advantage over other 10 mans regardless of skill levels.

This might be different in tier 15 since there is only one instance and no gating (that we know of)
however top 10 mans will still farm 25's during the normal mode week to gain advantages going into heroic's

So 10 man race is already broken as it is due to some guilds being able to farm 25 man. That will never change as long as you have 2 raid sizes. Only thing that would happen is that those guilds would benefit even more but overall picture won't change at all since they had the advantage at the first place. You could even argue that removing separate lockouts would benefit 'other' competitive 10 man guilds since now they have access to 25 man gear as well without endangering their 10 man run.

[Talen]

And then it was said a million times that those arguments are invalid.

Yes, but the people who say that tend not to know what they are on about. True, I'm not certain what he means by "sees more of the loot table" and "more forgiving" is, at best situational but the rest of his points seem valid.

25s gear faster - less gear is wasted as you'll likely have someone who can use it and the drop ratio per player is higher.

Yes, 25 man will always have all the buffs. But that's why 10 mans are designed around having less dps and hps requirements. You will always need less dps per person to meet enrage timer in 10 man but when 10 man manages to get all the buffs needed then suddenly it becomes much easier.

Yep - bit of a catch-22 that. Still, thanks to buff consolidation it at least has less of an impact than it did.

More cooldowns? Ofc there's more cooldowns, you need to take care of 25 not 10 people and dmg on the raid is higher.

With 25 players, you have a higher proportion of DPS. What's more, you likely also have all the raid CDs. The end result is that those CDs get much more effective when layered. You might get A*B in 10s, but you'll get A*B*C*D in 25s when CDs are used.

And like someone said, it's not like people are bitching here and looking for a change. Check the blue posts, Blizzard acknowledged changes are needed and they are incoming so instead of saying it here to people try to say that to developers who started this at the first place.

And yet we still don't even know what type of change Blizzard will be implementing. While Blizzard isn't happy with the representation of 25s, it does have to asked if they are unhappy enough to create a situation where players are actively encouraged to raid 25s. Or if they are unhappy, but plan only to address some of the shortcomings of the present model as far as logistics and setup difficulties are concerned, that being the area where 25s actually have real shortcomings compared with 10s.

Right now, all we know is they don't like the current situation, haven't liked it for a while, appear happy enough with the current model to the degree they made next to no changes for MoP, still don't like the idea of forcing players to play, have noted that the logistics effort of 25s is borne by relatively few players, have an idea that they are "discussing" and that it may be controversial.

So 10 man race is already broken as it is due to some guilds being able to farm 25 man.

Not really. You assume that there is a 10 man race. Currently - at least as far as Blizzard are concerned - there isn't. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, one top guild doesn't make a race.

You could even argue that removing separate lockouts would benefit 'other' competitive 10 man guilds since now they have access to 25 man gear as well without endangering their 10 man run.

No. You couldn't.

EJL

[Radalek]

Yes, but the people who say that tend not to know what they are on about. True, I'm not certain what he means by "sees more of the loot table" and "more forgiving" is, at best situational but the rest of his points seem valid.

25s gear faster - less gear is wasted as you'll likely have someone who can use it and the drop ratio per player is higher.



Yep - bit of a catch-22 that. Still, thanks to buff consolidation it at least has less of an impact than it did.



With 25 players, you have a higher proportion of DPS. What's more, you likely also have all the raid CDs. The end result is that those CDs get much more effective when layered. You might get A*B in 10s, but you'll get A*B*C*D in 25s when CDs are used.



And yet we still don't even know what type of change Blizzard will be implementing. While Blizzard isn't happy with the representation of 25s, it does have to asked if they are unhappy enough to create a situation where players are actively encouraged to raid 25s. Or if they are unhappy, but plan only to address some of the shortcomings of the present model as far as logistics and setup difficulties are concerned, that being the area where 25s actually have real shortcomings compared with 10s.

Right now, all we know is they don't like the current situation, haven't liked it for a while, appear happy enough with the current model to the degree they made next to no changes for MoP, still don't like the idea of forcing players to play, have noted that the logistics effort of 25s is borne by relatively few players, have an idea that they are "discussing" and that it may be controversial.






Not really. You assume that there is a 10 man race. Currently - at least as far as Blizzard are concerned - there isn't. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, one top guild doesn't make a race.



No. You couldn't.

EJL

Yeah, less gear is probably wasted less, but try to tell that to my guild who had 5x Gurthalak heroic sword drop once of a single Madness hc kill when no one needed it. At the same time we had total of ONE cloth boots from Warmaster in months and months of farming with 6-7 cloth users needing it while it dropped 4-5 times in our 10 man alt runs. RNG can screw you over just as same.

Yeah it's catch 22 in a way but that's how things work, can't see them can do anything else there tbh...

I am not saying those cds are not more effective but in the end it evens out the higher hps requirement 25 man has. I was just saying it can't be used as an argument.

We don't know what they will do. But we do know, based on blue posts, that whatever happens it will benefit 25 mans in some way and it won't be a small change. Peopls should be aware of that.

Ofc there is a 10 man race, maybe Blizz doesn't care but those guilds do and wowprogress tracks it. And it's not only Paragon doing it. If you browse wowprogress you will find at least 5-6 10man guilds doing it. Didn't bother checking further, there might be more. That makes 10 man race broken.

Well, those guilds don't have access now. If lockout change they will have it. And top 10 man guilds have it already so it won't change too much for them, they have advantage anyway at the first place.

[Dubalicious]

And been told many many times this is a stupid idea, your idea is stupid, and it will never happen. 25's need to stop bitching. You already gear faster than 10's. Yuo see more of a loot table than 10's. More forgiving if you lose people, more cooldowns, better chance at having all the buffs.

Complain too damn much, 25's are fine. NOTHING needs to change.

If your argument has you reverting to calling people stupid repeatedly it's probably not a very good argument. You might even say it's stupid.