[Resto] Overhealing Shrooms

[Raugnaut]

Druids, due to the nature of thier spells, generate an EXTREME amount of overhealing on most fights. This can be easily seen by taking a look at Spine Heroic logs, Tsulong logs, ect. If your HoTs can heal for full, with no overhealing, Resto Druids easily outpreform all other healers by 50% or more. Of course, for most fights, all this healing tends to go to overhealing, and fights that have unpredictable burst damage are fights that resto druids aren't suited to.

This change will allow us to fix 2 of our problems- our inability to deal with massive incoming damage waves (which doesn't happen a lot this tier), and our overhealing from our HoT effects.

[Lothrik]

Raugnaut: I was with you 100% until you said "massive incoming damage waves (which doesn't happen a lot this tier)"

Explosions on Stone Guard, basically everything on Feng, Garajal at random times and during execute, Spirit Kings when the first guy cleaves and when Meng makes the entire raid go insane, Elegon execute phase, Imperial Vizier when he spawns shields and yodels, Blade Lord Unseen Strike and when you reach each end of the path in phase 2 with everyone low HP, Garalon every 30 seconds on heroic.. I could go on.

[Daerio]

Yup. Used it at least 150 times last night. Absorbs are not burst healing. You can't reasonably predict all the random damage people will take. It's not unreasonable that I would be envious of a burst healing spell that encourages people to stack and only requires me to overheal.

Preemptively shielding people from taking damage and having burst healing to get them up afterwards both accomplish the same goal. The difference is shielding is better - it allows people to soak more than 100% of their total HP. I have a hard time understanding your position since spirit shell is essentially a broken 1 minute cd (it's the reason disc priests are the best healers in the game right now) and how you apparently don't want resto druids to have a burst healing ability. (even though they're the worst healers in the game right now)

Again, as I said before, my problem with it is needing to predict so far in advance where they are needed. No other mechanic in the game up to now has required this.

[Lothrik]

Preemptively shielding people from taking damage and having burst healing to get them up afterwards both accomplish the same goal. The difference is shielding is better - it allows people to soak more than 100% of their total HP. I have a hard time understanding your position since spirit shell is essentially a broken 1 minute cd (it's the reason disc priests are the best healers in the game right now) and how you apparently don't want resto druids to have a burst healing ability. (even though they're the worst healers in the game right now)

Again, as I said before, my problem with it is needing to predict so far in advance where they are needed. No other mechanic in the game up to now has required this.

Are you dense? I love this change, I'm pretty sure I actually said I would cry tears of joy if our Resto Druid had this right now. It's badly needed and incredibly good for Resto Druids. I don't understand why Resto Druids are crying about it like it's bad.

Having to predict stuff in advance (even 5+ minutes in advance) is not a new concept. Or do you just go into raids and pop cooldowns at random? Devotion Aura now!

Edit: I'd also like to add that I could quite easily continue topping meters without ever using Spirit Shell. The problem you have is with how absorbs work, not Spirit Shell specifically -- and Disc Priests put out a ridiculous amount of absorbs without ever casting Spirit Shell.

[Daerio]

This change will allow us to fix 2 of our problems- our inability to deal with massive incoming damage waves (which doesn't happen a lot this tier), and our overhealing from our HoT effects.

I just want to point out it's ONLY Rejuv overhealing. Not Regrowth, Wild Growth, Swiftmend or anything else.

[insanedruid]

If you're so bitter about absorbs, reroll. I think it's a good change and I can easily see a use for it on 9/10 of the heroic fights my guild has on farm right now, plus several we haven't even tried yet. On-demand burst healing like this is extremely useful whether or not you want to acknowledge it.

Edit:
Just in case you were wondering, just off the top of my head I can see a use for it on the following fights:
Feng, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings, Elegon, Will of the Emperor, Imperial Vizier, Blade Lord, Garalon, Wind Lord.
I define "a use" as "it could be used to heal people up extremely quickly after high damage, effectively negating the need for a raid cooldown."
I will admit Gara'jal is a bit of a stretch though. You would really only want it for the execute phase, and at that point you're using every cooldown anyway.

Edit 2:
Also laughing at "SS is easier to apply"

Easier than having rejuv overhealing turn into bonus mushroom healing, then clicking Detonate when people are low HP and within range of your shrooms?

Telling people to stack up is so much harder than keeping track of incoming raid damage spikes and building Spirit Shell 15 seconds in advance, keeping an eye on periodic random damage that will make your Spirit Shell absorb less (or none) on specific targets, people just plain going out of range while you're trying to build Spirit Shell up, or just standing in fire so you have to PW:S them to compensate.

So much easier, right? Lol. If you want to talk about easy, look at Devotion Aura. "Is it magic damage? Check. Devotion Aura time!"

"people just plain going out of range while you're trying to build Spirit Shell up"
As you said you can just ask them to stack up(not really as poh has a 30yards range) for you to apply ss. But I guess sometimes you just can't ask the raid to stack up.

Druid is already healing very well when the raid is stacked up. I would rather have some improvement in raid healing when the raid is spread out.
To be specific Wind lord final phase, the raid is spread out and it's hard for druid to heal through rain of blades. Stacking up requires movement which reduces dps.
The second is empress's sonic discharge. You can't really stack up due to dread screech.

And no i'm not bitter about absorbs. I just want some improvement in druid's weakness.

[Lothrik]

Druid is already healing very well when the raid is stacked up. I would rather have some improvement in raid healing when the raid is spread out.
To be specific Wind lord final phase, the raid is spread out and it's hard for druid to heal through rain of blades. Stacking up requires movement which reduces dps.
The second is empress's sonic discharge. You can't really stack up due to dread screech.

And no i'm not bitter about absorbs. I just want some improvement in druid's weakness.

Every healer is strong when people are stacked. Every healer is weak when people are spread out. Some are stronger than others during stacking, and some are weaker than others during spreading. One thing I have noticed is Monks are unusually strong* even when people spread out, they're the odd one out. You don't see Holy Paladins or Resto Shaman bragging about their spread healing, do you?

* Pretty sure this is largely due to Glyph of Renewing Mist, correct me if I'm wrong.

[insanedruid]

I wasn't aware anyone actually quantified their AoE healing in area, but alright.

For the record, Holy Word: Sanctuary is 8 yards too, people don't seem to have any problem stacking in that.



Yup. Used it at least 150 times last night. Absorbs are not burst healing. You can't reasonably predict all the random damage people will take. It's not unreasonable that I would be envious of a burst healing spell that encourages people to stack and only requires me to overheal.

I'm not saying spells need stacking are bad. Druid's burst healing is not the best, but if the raid is stacking up we are doing fine. Why fixing something which is fine already?

But sometimes the raid just can't stack up. Druid needs something to handle this situation.

[Daerio]

Having to predict stuff in advance (even 5+ minutes in advance) is not a new concept. Or do you just go into raids and pop cooldowns at random? Devotion Aura now!

Having to predict when to use a 40 yard CD is a little bit different than predicting exactly where people will be standing. I feel like this is a pretty obvious difference.

If you're so bitter about absorbs, reroll. I think it's a good change and I can easily see a use for it on 9/10 of the heroic fights my guild has on farm right now, plus several we haven't even tried yet.

I'm also going to point out it's a bit odd you apparently claim to have 10 heroics on farm when you're only 7/16, also. :-x

[Lothrik]

I'm not saying spells need stacking are bad. Druid's burst healing is not the best, but if the raid is stacking up we are doing fine. Why fixing something which is fine already?

But sometimes the raid just can't stack up. Druid needs something to handle this situation.

My point is every healer has this problem. We aren't all going to get a Glyph of Renewing Mist equivalent though (I actually kind of expect that glyph to get nerfed or something TBH). Take this buff for what it is, you get considerably improved burst healing -- there's no downside here.

Having to predict when to use a 40 yard CD is a little bit different than predicting exactly where people will be standing. I feel like this is a pretty obvious difference.



I'm also going to point out it's a bit odd you apparently claim to have 10 heroics on farm when you're only 7/16, also. :-x

I didn't say we had 10 heroics on farm. I said I could see a use for it on 9/10. "Nine tenths." And I'm actually 8/16H. Guild is 9/16H, I haven't gotten in a WotE heroic kill yet, just joined last week.

You don't have to predict where people will stand. You tell them where they will stand. Use markers.

[insanedruid]

Every healer is strong when people are stacked. Every healer is weak when people are spread out. Some are stronger than others during stacking, and some are weaker than others during spreading. One thing I have noticed is Monks are unusually strong* even when people spread out, they're the odd one out. You don't see Holy Paladins or Resto Shaman bragging about their spread healing, do you?

* Pretty sure this is largely due to Glyph of Renewing Mist, correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't play shaman so I don't know, but pally has light of dawn which has a 30 yards radius. With 5holy power you can lod -> hs-->lod. This heals the raid for 400K in 3 gcds.
Priest has POH which is also 30 yards.

For druid you have wild growth(which is like lod over 7 second and on a 10s cd), rejuv (which is slow and expensive as it tends to overheal). And the druid is down to regrowth.

[Daerio]

I didn't say we had 10 heroics on farm.

I think it's a good change and I can easily see a use for it on 9/10 of the heroic fights my guild has on farm right now, plus several we haven't even tried yet.

Oh, ok.

You don't have to predict where people will stand. You tell them where they will stand. Use markers.

The entire point is this works sometimes, for some fights. Some fights it doesn't work. Especially on progression kills with tight enrage timers (which is most of the fights these days) you can't ask the ranged DPS to sacrifice damage to make it "easier to heal." The more movement you ask casters to do, the less damage they do, the more you wipe to enrages. It's not just a "We tell them to do it and they're gonna do it" situation. I feel like a lot of people only think about how to maximize their role, rather than maximizing raid efficiency. Yes, it will always be easier for the healers if the raid always stacks up. No, this is not how most fights work.

And as it's already been said, Swiftmend + Wild Growth already more or less covers this for stack fights. Mushrooms with 1+ minute "charge-up" seems both redundant and punishing.

[Terahertz]

I think the idea behind them is that they sort of "absorb" the overhealing done so you can use the overhealing you've done for your shrooms or something? Tbh the radius is quite miserably small on the detonation. It's only like 8 yards which is nothing.

[Lothrik]

I don't play shaman so I don't know, but pally has light of dawn which has a 30 yards radius. With 5holy power you can lod -> hs-->lod. This heals the raid for 400K in 3 gcds.
Priest has POH which is also 30 yards.

For druid you have wild growth(which is like lod over 7 second and on a 10s cd), rejuv (which is slow and expensive as it tends to overheal). And the druid is down to regrowth.

"Consumes up to 3 Holy Power to emanate a wave of healing energy, healing up to 6 of the most injured targets in your party or raid within 30 yards for 1550 to 1725 (+ 14.4% of SpellPower) per charge of Holy Power."

I have an extremely hard time believing Light of Dawn can heal an entire raid for 400K in 2 casts even with full Holy Power before each cast.

These are some pretty ridiculous comparisons when I was specifically talking about spread healing. I'm not sure we're even talking about the same thing here, when I said spread healing I meant "you have to run 20 yards to heal this dude that is over in the middle of nowhere," not "everybody is within 30 yards."

Oh, ok.

Not sure if you're trolling. Do you really not understand fractions?

The entire point is this works sometimes, for some fights. Some fights it doesn't work.

So what? Power Word: Barrier is more difficult to utilize than this (you have to get people to stack and it has to be before damage, not after), and I still manage to find uses for it on just about every fight. It even has a smaller radius (7 yards)!

Yes, it will always be easier for the healers if the raid always stacks up. No, this is not how most fights work.

Let's see, you can't reasonably stack at any point on Stone Guard, unless you're cleaving all of the dogs at the same time I guess. Every other fight in MSV either forces or encourages you to stack several times throughout the fight, if not the entire time. The first three fights in HoF you are pretty much required to stack >50% of the fight minimum, the fourth you can only stack in the first phase, the fifth you want to stack the entire third phase, and the sixth you end up stacking a lot of the second phase and are forced to stack pretty much the entire final phase. First boss in terrace you stack the vast majority of the time, second boss you almost never stack, third boss you can stack quite a lot (mind the water), and fourth boss varies, though I wouldn't call it a stack fight.

Yeah, you totally don't ever stack this tier. Mhmm.

[Daerio]

Daerio: Not sure if you're trolling. Do you really not understand fractions?

Ok, so now that I've called you out on something you said that's obviously a lie, we'll pretend you were saying something else.

So what? Power Word: Barrier is more difficult to utilize than this (you have to get people to stack and it has to be before damage, not after), and I still manage to find uses for it on just about every fight. It even has a smaller radius (7 yards)!

And barrier can also be dropped on demand, and you don't have to drop it in the correct place 3 minutes in advance! But no, night and day really, but you don't want to see logic. You just want to jump on this bandwagon that people like when a spec is underperforming - "Look, a buff! You guys will be great now! I can't believe you aren't super happy with it!" (secretly hoping the spec won't actually get fixed)

It depends on fight mechanics, and it depends on what happens to it before it hits live. I don't think there's anything to get super excited about, though, considering the restrictions on it.

[Lothrik]

Ok, so now that I've called you out on something you said that's obviously a lie, we'll pretend you were saying something else.



And barrier can also be dropped on demand, and you don't have to drop it in the correct place 3 minutes in advance! But no, night and day really, but you don't want to see logic. You just want to jump on this bandwagon that people like when a spec is underperforming - "Look, a buff! You guys will be great now! I can't believe you aren't super happy with it!" (secretly hoping the spec won't actually get fixed)

It depends on fight mechanics, and it depends on what happens to it before it hits live. I don't think there's anything to get super excited about, though, considering the restrictions on it.

If I was lying I'd say it, I'm a pretty blunt person. I literally meant nine tenths, so that's what I wrote.

Also, why the hell would I not want Resto Druids to be buffed? My group leader is a Resto Druid. I want to progress. Your arguments make no sense.

If anyone should be complaining it's Resto Shaman. Healing Rain is just a waste of mana if people don't stay stacked in it, your mushrooms can wait as long as they need for people to stack up before you detonate.

[Daerio]

Let's see, you can't reasonably stack at any point on Stone Guard, unless you're cleaving all of the dogs at the same time I guess. Every other fight in MSV either forces or encourages you to stack several times throughout the fight, if not the entire time. The first three fights in HoF you are pretty much required to stack >50% of the fight minimum, the fourth you can only stack in the first phase, the fifth you want to stack the entire third phase, and the sixth you end up stacking a lot of the second phase and are forced to stack pretty much the entire final phase. First boss in terrace you stack the vast majority of the time, second boss you almost never stack, third boss you can stack quite a lot (mind the water), and fourth boss varies, though I wouldn't call it a stack fight.

Yeah, you totally don't ever stack this tier. Mhmm.

Lets see, you cannot REASONABLY predict where the stack points on Vizier will be for Force and Verve. They are random - but you can barrier/spirit shell them!

You MIGHT be able to arrange to stack for Blade Lord Unseen Strikes, (depending on good tornado placement) and possibly pop them in the millisecond after Unseen hits but before the raid gets knocked back if you're super pro. But you know what you can do? You guessed it - Barrier and Spirit Shell!

Garalon? No. Not at all.

I find it odd that you count the first three bosses in HoF like they're ideal, when they're in fact the worst for this mechanic.

Wind Lord? Well, you can have the raid stack for rains and then spread out (hope a ranged/healer doesn't stay in too long and spawn a wind bomb on melee) - but this certainly isn't ideal. We also don't have the raid stack for barriers for the same reason, but we do tend to use them on tanks+melee because there's no reason not to. We'll call this 50/50.

Ambershaper and Empress? No.

Stone Guards? No. Feng? Yes. Gara'jal? Yes. Spirit Kings? No. Elegon? Yes, at a couple points. Will? 50/50.

Protectors? No. Tsulong? Yes. Lei She? Could pop them on tanks. Sha of fear? Well, you might be able to get some use out of on the main platform, or tanks, but generally not great.

[Lothrik]

Lets see, you cannot REASONABLY predict where the stack points on Vizier will be for Force and Verve. They are random - but you can barrier/spirit shell them!

Wrong. Put your mushrooms in melee range. Done.

You MIGHT be able to arrange to stack for Blade Lord Unseen Strikes, (depending on good tornado placement) and possibly pop them in the millisecond after Unseen hits but before the raid gets knocked back if you're super pro. But you know what you can do? You guessed it - Barrier and Spirit Shell!

Wrong again. We have specific stack markers for every single Unseen Strike. Tip: If you stack against certain walls you don't get sent flying at all.

Garalon? No. Not at all.

I find it odd that you count the first three bosses in HoF like they're ideal, when they're in fact the worst for this mechanic.

Put a stack marker in the middle of the room. Anyone not specifically kiting the pheremones stays there. Drop your mushrooms there. Detonate after (or before I guess) a crush. In our raid you would of healed a paladin healer, a priest healer, and 2+ ranged DPS doing this.

Wind Lord? Well, you can have the raid stack for rains and then spread out (hope a ranged/healer doesn't stay in too long and spawn a wind bomb on melee) - but this certainly isn't ideal. We also don't have the raid stack for barriers for the same reason, but we do tend to use them on tanks+melee because there's no reason not to. We'll call this 50/50.

I agree this one is a tough call.

Ambershaper and Empress? No.

Hello? Phase 3. You know, that place where there is a ridiculously huge damage spike at the beginning and everyone is collapsing on the boss? Disclaimer: I'm actually describing BOTH Amber-Shaper AND Empress here.

Stone Guards? No. Feng? Yes. Gara'jal? Yes. Spirit Kings? No. Elegon? Yes, at a couple points. Will? 50/50.

Spirit Kings - You stack for the entire first king on heroic. You stack every single time Meng uses Maddening Shout. It's not that hard to put markers down.

TL;DR: If you can't find a use for 5.2 mushrooms on a fight, you haven't thought about the fight enough.

Anyway, I've gotta head out shortly. I'll check this topic again in a couple hours.

[fizzbob]

Without knowing much more than the tool-tip, I have a feeling it is going to be pretty damn good.
Still shrooms should be placed on a target player instead of a location, and I think they could find other ways to make our hot's not over-heal for so much.

Instead these new shrooms, will encourage over-healing with rejuvenation, which is kinda odd.

Got the feeling they will change a lot during the PTR.

since the overhealing is totally inevitable, it's just a way to both offset that and make shrooms useful since right now, they aren't
i see nothing wrong with it and think it's a smart, creative way to kill 2 birds with one fucking rock

[Daerio]

Wrong. Put your mushrooms in melee range. Done.

Well, since I've killed heroic Vizier and you haven't, I'll go ahead and let you know that this isn't how last phase works, and P1 is a joke.

Put a stack marker in the middle of the room. Anyone not specifically kiting the pheremones stays there. Drop your mushrooms there. Detonate after (or before I guess) a crush. In our raid you would of healed a paladin healer, a priest healer, and 2+ ranged DPS doing this.

Cannot reasonably predict Garalon won't be standing on top of it. Cannot require DPS on a tight enrage to move out of legs to stand on top of a random location.

Spirit Kings - You stack for the entire first king on heroic. You stack every single time Meng uses Maddening Shout. It's not that hard to put markers down.

Moving the entire first phase for flanking orders. Massive strikes aren't even burst damage, they come every 4 seconds? Cannot reasonably predict where Meng will be standing either, during Cowardice.

Even on a fight like Will (or Protectors) where you can reasonably expect to hit people with mushrooms - there's no burst damage to heal with mushrooms anyway. Only if you somehow get behind. Mushrooms still cost mana, you still need to be efficient with them - not just press them to do 90% overhealing.

I'm ready to move on though. You only want to see the positive potential in it, you don't want to see the negative - so you won't. Also, how they work for current tier won't matter (like I've already said) - it matters what the next tier's fights are like, and we don't know.