Your ideal raid size?

[LazarusLong]

I actually think that 18 would be nice (3x6)

[Gilian]

1!

No, I voted 15. Pretty convenient but still epic.

---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 01:17 PM ----------

I actually think that 18 would be nice (3x6)

Why 3x6 and not 3x5?

[Deleted]

1!

No, I voted 15. Pretty convenient but still epic.

In short i agree.

Why 3x6 and not 3x5?

See posts in the end of previous page.
If you want follow the links i provided as well.
You have written many posts with insight on the matter, woull like to see your opinion on potential 6 ppl dungeon group and one of its multiplier as a raid group.

[vaccine]

For me it's not so much a certain size that's best (though I think I prefer a 15 or 20 man) but the unification to one size. I'd be happy with anything from 10 to 40 again, so long as it was the sole raid size. The differing sizes just cause too many issues.

[Kisho]

15, and I'm quite pleased to see a lot of other people voting for it as well. It just makes sense for raids. At any rate, we need to get away from 2 raid sizes, and 15 scales up nicely from 5 mans (also 3 mans i.e. Scenarios).

I'm fairly certain the only reason we didn't get 15 mans in MoP was because Blizz didn't want a repeat of the launch of TBC. Next expansion though? Fingers crossed!

[traen]

FLEXIBLE raid size for normal mode bosses.
With Boss damage and HP adjusted according to the amount of players in raid.

So if just 8 players showed up, you would still be able to go and raid, and if out of all sudden all your 13 players decided to raid today, you would not have to bench 3 of them.

Perfect solution for all casual guilds.

Heroic mode should stick to 25ppl raid size to avoid balance issues.

[Kanx]

In a world where everyone shows up and there's an abundance of skilled raiders; 40 man - hands down.

In our world (of warcraft), 15 - 20.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

If I were designing WoW today, raids would be for 15 players.

[Deleted]

I like 10man.

Whenever I was raiding in a 25man progression guild (wotlk mostly) there always was drama. This was not enjoyable but you had to put up with it to stay competitive. In 10man guilds there is so much less drama which makes for an increadibly better experience.

Personally I think that large scale PvE is a thing of the past. I cannot think of any current game (even mmos) that focuses its PvE on groups much larger than 10 players.

I think that 25mans (besides LFR which will always stay 25 or bigger) will die out soon. As the game gets more casual there really is no incentive to put up with people that you do not like.

Edit:
Anything between 5 (challenge modes basically) and 15 sounds fine to me. I personally will never again put up with anything bigger. Too many issues.

[Gilian]

In short i agree.




See posts in the end of previous page.
If you want follow the links i provided as well.
You have written many posts with insight on the matter, woull like to see your opinion on potential 6 ppl dungeon group and one of its multiplier as a raid group.

You make some good points about 6-12-24 groups. I don't think it is worth it though.

It is not that simple like:
1. make a 12 man group
2. raid
3. make another 12 man group
4. raid
5. combine groups to create a 24 man group

Every guild is different. Some might miss sign ups for raids some might have to rotate players because they got plenty of sign ups.

It would also be a lot of work to revamp all dungeons to 6 mans. But it would definitely help with tuning them properly.


I think changing back to one raidsize is the best thing to do. It might be a shock to the players but it would solve so many problems. It looks like 15 man is ideal.
And as much as I would like to see TBC style of having different raids for different sizes (Karazhan/BT, ZA/SSC) I think it would still create problems we don't need.


I think Blizzard knows perfectly well that 15 man would be ideal but it really depends on what they want and need. Do they want to go on for many more expansions? So, is it worth it to change sizes again? Maybe they don't want to do it because this is a very bad time to bring players in a shock and have people complain and quit. We are talking about millions of dollars here. For us it is easy but for them this is one very though decision much thougher I think than when they removed 40 man and went for 25 man.
Therefor maybe a solution of 6-12-24 man sized groups is easier on players to implement. Having 6 and 12 sized groups or 5 and 15 sized groups wouldn't really make a difference though. Both options would mean 25 man guilds have to drop 10+ players so basically split up in to two groups.

[konway]

40.

Raids felt infinitely more epic with 39 people fighting alongside you. Bosses and the rooms they inhabited also seemed much larger in vanilla. 10 mans feel like an oversized dungeon group, and it's hard to maintain a 25 man roster on a lot of servers now thanks to the smaller option.

[Outofmana]

100man for me, 40 is alright too. Always thought 20 was way too small in vanilla with ZG/AQ20 and 25 isn't really any better, feels empty.
Remove the damn 10 mans so everyone will make some effort to make at least 25 mans work. If they would delete 10mans everyone would raid 25man instead of some idiots saying they would quit raiding.

[Marypoopins]

they should up the ante, with 15 and 30 man raids

[Frozenbeef]

Yeah, I'm pretty fond of just one...I hate relying on other people it just feels wrong. >.< I feel like i achieve a lot more when i work on things by myself.

[Barnabas]

I prefer 40 but not interested in less than 18. Less than those numbers just isn't epic in the slightest. If It would go to less than 18 I'd quit WoW forever and any related fansite as well.

[Talen]

In my honest opinion this is far from ideal because it is not even in our wildest dreams feasibile.

Feasibility has little to do with idealism.

1) Mechanics and how they affect a group

IF Raid<10 Do Y ELSE DO Y

Alternatively: Scalable buffs that vary in strength depending on how many players are in the raid.

It's more complex, but doable.

3) The human nature looking for sweetspots, meaning the ideal number of people with the ideal setup, to beat an encounter the fastest and easiest way, meaning that this "dynamic" raid model, wont help guilds to "fit everybody in" and all to be happy, but on the contrary to exclude as many as required to beat a given encounter in the most efficient way, till content is on farm status.

Only if the sweetspot is the same across all encounters. Otherwise, you end up stacking for one encounter to make it easier, but make another one more difficult.

So no, it is rather naive to call this ideal.

As I said...IDEAL.

Why 3x6 and not 3x5?

Personally? 3x5 might indeed be better in some ways but I'd like a 6 man party simply because of the population involved. Increasing the DPS per tank/healer in a party simply makes tanks and healers less critical as you need fewer for a given DPS population. Once you have that, then you need to choose between a 2 party equivalent raid, or a three party system. Three would allow for 1-3 tank encounters, as well as a spare on 2 tank encounters. Or you could balance around the standard 2 tank, 4-6 healers and have a 4 party-equivalent system for LFR.

I think, overall, the important aspect is that one single raid size is better in many ways.

EJL

[Cthulhu 2020]

Where's the option for 5 man raiding? Or less, I want 3 man raids.

[konway]

IF Raid<10 Do Y ELSE DO Y

Have you ever, ya know... raided? Just wondering, because it sounds like you haven't. It's not possible to scale mechanics dynamically for all raid sizes from 0-100.

For example: With 10 people in the raid, 2 get mind controlled for 15 seconds each minute.
With 9 people in the raid, how many get mind controlled? 1.8? How do you mind control 80% of a player? Or do you just mind control 1 instead of 2, making that mechanic unfairly easy for a 9 man raid?

Even with infinite time and money that feature would never be implemented.

[Talen]

Have you ever, ya know... raided? Just wondering, because it sounds like you haven't. It's not possible to scale mechanics dynamically for all raid sizes from 0-100.

For example: With 10 people in the raid, 2 get mind controlled for 15 seconds each minute.
With 9 people in the raid, how many get mind controlled? 1.8? How do you mind control 80% of a player? Or do you just mind control 1 instead of 2, making that mechanic unfairly easy for a 9 man raid?

Even with infinite time and money that feature would never be implemented.

You went from a simplistic description on how they can implement a mechanic switch based on raid size to "you don't raid, hur, hur, hur" faster than most people I know. You are right in that they won't do it for various reasons, but with "infinite time and money" that feature would be implemented because it offers a lot of benefit to the game and groups.

It's ideal in many ways...it just isn't feasible.

Where's the option for 5 man raiding?

Already exist. They're called dungeons.

Or less, I want 3 man raids.

And these are known as scenarios.

EJL

[traen]

Already exist. They're called dungeons.

And these are known as scenarios.

It would be an option, but dungeons are not balanced to be a proper pve content. They are too fast and too easy. Doing dungeons for 4 hours a day, like raiding? No way someone could keep himself doing this even for 3-4 weeks.
And they give you rewards too fast. You can get all the possible gear from dungeons in just 1 week of "dungeoning". And what to do next for another 6 month until the next expansion?

Also you know, if 5man dungeons would not provide maximum possible gear, no one would raid it. Its simple psychology. The reward is everything. The world champion would not run school championships, even if winning there would be as hard as winning the world championship.