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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by zuluslayer View Post
    Seperate achievements and lockouts for a start. I really find it funny how some people are arguing against pure facts. No, 10 man is not harder.
    On certain fights 10 man is harder.
    On certain fights 25 man is harder.
    When one of the 2 is significantly harder it is more times the 10 man version.
    This is a fact don't argue it.

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    On certain fights 10 man is harder.
    On certain fights 25 man is harder.
    When one of the 2 is significantly harder it is more times the 10 man version.
    This is a fact don't argue it.
    First two are facts, the third is subjective. However, I don't think you'll be able to get a consensus as to which fights are harder in which format.

    Quote Originally Posted by zuluslayer View Post
    Seperate achievements and lockouts for a start.
    Made that way for various reasons. Separate lockouts, for example, cause pressure for thsoe who feel obliged/forecd to run them both and create balance and longevity issues for Blizzard.

    EJL

  3. #723
    Haven't read the whole thread.
    My philosophy in that question relates to numbers of mouths on the certain pieces of gear.
    In fact, 25 ppl as far as 10ppl are having a problem with sharing the loot equally. It means that, if Boss drops 3 items and all of them are equal/related to certain class/spec, it may be a gearing of the single person. And if 10ppl would not argue against over geared restoration druid because of his luck on boss drop, no one would be happy that 6 druids(assuming 2 trees and 4 owls, which is mad) from 25ppl took all the gear people were waiting for the whole week.
    Same thing for tokens.
    And I'm not relating for the situations where Council loot just gearing up two guild master's schoolmates(lol, is that possible in 25?) or two best players(which we may assume by looking at Koilie or TV@Vodka, two shadow priests who were overgeared firstly to break some dust because there was a guarantee that such a Pro's will unlock the potential of the epics from the first week). That is truly a respectful position and should not being debated.

    Just imagine that every boss in 25ppl will give 1 cloth(including spirit gear), 1 leather/mail(including intelligence gear), 1 plate(including intelligence and tanking gear) and 1 ring/neck/trinket?
    This system will always work for at least 3 players, and for 10ppl it is going to be too fat. For 25ppl it sounds pretty legit since even if they are hard-gearing the one person, he may get only 1 piece of gear and 1 jewellery item/trinket.
    Last edited by Minoan; 2013-01-12 at 06:51 AM. Reason: editing some mistakes, english is not my first

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    It may be someone's impression, and GC even has said that the believes 25m is logistically (i.e. outside of the raid instance) more demanding.

    However, no one can argue that 25m is in any way harder than 10m once you actually step into that raid instance. This is what the devs have stated over and over again, and this is obviously how it works. If you like raiding 25m, that's great. As I said before, some people simply prefer more of a challenge. 25m is there for people who want less executional responsibility per person, more drops per boss and an easier time gearing as well as multiple battle rezes to give you a nice cushiony pillow in case you somehow manage to mess up what little responsibility you have in a 25m environment.

    There is a reason we don't have 10m LFR
    What a load of bull.
    Some people prefer challenge? I already told you that's exactly the reason best guilds, best players, the most dedicated ones are playing 25 man. They want recognition and satisfaction of killing bosses on the hardest difficulty thus they chose 25 man format. They want challenge so they raid 25 man, period. Undisputable, undeniable, fact. Paragon stated they would rather raid 25 man but they can't atm.
    Yeah GC said that 25 man are logistically harder but he never stated that it's outside of the raid only. Do you really think 25 man is less logistically challenging than 10 man in any way? You should also add that GC said that 25 man is more complex, I don't think any sane person would argue that.
    If you scroll above I already explained how wrong you are about having less executional responsibility in 25 man, on any harder heroic boss you have more. Ragnaros 25 HC says hi to you if you ever did, which I doubt. I did both 10 and 25 when it was relevant content and difference is laughable.
    And reason why we don't have 10man LFR is cos 95% of LFR population have no clue what's going on and they need to be carried. It's exact the opposite on 25 man hc on hardest bosses, you can't carry a single person.
    Now are you going to actually respond with arguments or keep repeating same thing over and over again?

  5. #725
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    One of the reasons why 25-mans are slowly dying is because of server populations (now this is just my theory).
    Since WotLK release up to the beginning of 2009, they've opened up 11+ server in the US only (can't find anything if they opened up new ones after that but I remember them doing so). Only problem is that the amount of subscriptions haven't changed at all since that time, even dropped a bit since the peak.

    Only thing they can do now is to either allow cross-realm raiding or start merging those empty servers with higher population ones. On my realm there's 0 25 man guilds, since they all moved to higher pop servers during cata.

  6. #726
    I already told you that's exactly the reason best guilds, best players, the most dedicated ones are playing 25 man. They want recognition and satisfaction of killing bosses on the hardest difficulty thus they chose 25 man format.
    They do 25man as it's considered hardest due to it's history and most of these guilds have 25man tradition, takes a while to change those two. In reality formats seem pretty balanced overall this tier.

  7. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khedgar View Post
    One of the reasons why 25-mans are slowly dying is because of server populations (now this is just my theory).
    Since WotLK release up to the beginning of 2009, they've opened up 11+ server in the US only (can't find anything if they opened up new ones after that but I remember them doing so). Only problem is that the amount of subscriptions haven't changed at all since that time, even dropped a bit since the peak.

    Only thing they can do now is to either allow cross-realm raiding or start merging those empty servers with higher population ones. On my realm there's 0 25 man guilds, since they all moved to higher pop servers during cata.
    Thank you. This does have a lot to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mixerii View Post
    They do 25man as it's considered hardest due to it's history and most of these guilds have 25man tradition
    Exactly. In reality it is much, much easier now to do 25m. There is far less executional responsibility per person in 25m, which the devs even admit. The legacy is what keeps 25m players in this state of willed ignorance where they actually believe that what they are doing is somehow difficult or has any ounce of prestige.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  8. #728
    omg guys can you stop it. This thread isn't even about 25 vs 10.

    On topic one thing i could consider controversial is to have 25 man exclusive content, like a 25 man only boss.

  9. #729
    Scarab Lord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodonpachi View Post
    omg guys can you stop it. This thread isn't even about 25 vs 10.
    The first sentence of this topic is "Any news on 25men raiding and incentives for them?"

    My argument is and always has been that they already receive a plethora of incentives. Some people just like the added in-raid challenge of 10m. I'm thinking their "controversial" new change will be to increase the difficultly of 25m to finally have it on par with 10m. Maybe take away brezes or drops per boss. Maybe tighten the enrage timers for the currently under-tuned 25m bosses, I don't know.

    I think Khedgar was on the right track with his hypothesis about server population being a predominant factor.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  10. #730
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    In reality it is much, much easier now to do 25m. There is far less executional responsibility per person in 25m, which the devs even admit. The legacy is what keeps 25m players in this state of willed ignorance where they actually believe that what they are doing is somehow difficult or has any ounce of prestige.
    Never read more bull in my life, look at pretty much every fight this tier.

    Extra dog, fire chains, puddles
    Resonance, wild fire.
    Spirit world.
    Shields, shadow trails, cowardice, pillage, rain of arrows.
    Soaking on elegon.
    Sparks & dancing.

    Attenuation, f&v.
    Blade lord stacking, tornado positioning, tornado dodging
    Garalon is pretty equal.
    WL is pretty equal on heroic at least.
    Constructs.
    Dissonance, kiting, trap stacking, visions.

    Dispels, interrupts.
    Nightmares, sunbeam, LoD, Sun breath.
    Lei shi is pretty equal
    Sha is pretty equal.

    So let's see, that's 3 fights out of 16 that could be considered equal in terms of individual responsibilities on 25 man. 25 man is harder to organize, harder to maintain and harder to execute. To top it off, name me one fight on 10 man that's been harder due to mechanics and not output checks. I can only recall one which was beth'tilac in 10h. Oh and Hagara, that's basically it though.
    Last edited by mmocf10b8a8948; 2013-01-12 at 01:46 PM.

  11. #731
    Deleted
    wait wait ur saying that 25 persons dont have easier time on dispells and interrupts?

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    The first sentence of this topic is "Any news on 25men raiding and incentives for them?"

    My argument is and always has been that they already receive a plethora of incentives. Some people just like the added in-raid challenge of 10m. I'm thinking their "controversial" new change will be to increase the difficultly of 25m to finally have it on par with 10m. Maybe take away brezes or drops per boss. Maybe tighten the enrage timers for the currently under-tuned 25m bosses, I don't know.

    I think Khedgar was on the right track with his hypothesis about server population being a predominant factor.
    No, people raid 10 man cos they find them easier to manage and deal with. People that want true challenge and are really dedicated are in top 25 man guilds since they want to kill bosses on the hardest difficulty.
    And only added incentive to do 25 man is 4% more loot per person.

    And you mention tighter enrage just shows how ridiculous you are. Every single harder dps check boss had much tighter enrage timer on 25 man, every single one. It has been like that for ages now. Can you even dispute that, please try? Give us some arguments, waiting here.
    Just an example of last 2 tiers.
    DS, Ultraxion was dps check boss. Every single 25 man kill at start was barely making it. You kill boss as he enrages or if you have really good dps you killed it 1-2 seconds before. Go and take a look at Blood Legion, Method, Paragon kills. On 10 man world first Exodus killed it with 20-30 seconds left.
    This tier, Gara'jal. Take a look at Method, Blood Legion and all other first kills, raid dies as the boss die or you kill it 1-2 seconds away. Paragon world first they killed it with 20 sec left and they had someone dying even.
    But please, present your arguments about tighter enrage, would like to hear them.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-01-12 at 02:08 PM.

  13. #733
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    On 25 man, there's less individual responsibility, which means you have more time to DPS. Just look at logs, 25 man dps is higher than 10 man dps on practically every fight, due to less individual responsibility, and more cooldowns being stacked. And 6 healing 25 man is not underhealing. You need to look at the % of the raid being DPS, not the % being healers. in a 25 man, when 6 healing, 68% of the raid is DPS. In a 10 man, only 50% of the raid is DPS when 3 healing, and even when 2 healing (which is not really advised when progressing imperiel vizier or blade lord), it's still only 60% opposed to 68%, so ofcource dps requirements on 25 man will be higher, a bigger portion of the raid is DPS, and you get slightly more uptime in 25 man, and more buff stacking. (more stampeding roars = less movement, more lightning totems = more dps, etc)

  14. #734
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    On 25 man, there's less individual responsibility, which means you have more time to DPS. Just look at logs, 25 man dps is higher than 10 man dps on practically every fight, due to less individual responsibility, and more cooldowns being stacked. And 6 healing 25 man is not underhealing. You need to look at the % of the raid being DPS, not the % being healers. in a 25 man, when 6 healing, 68% of the raid is DPS. In a 10 man, only 50% of the raid is DPS when 3 healing, and even when 2 healing (which is not really advised when progressing imperiel vizier or blade lord), it's still only 60% opposed to 68%, so ofcource dps requirements on 25 man will be higher, a bigger portion of the raid is DPS, and you get slightly more uptime in 25 man, and more buff stacking. (more stampeding roars = less movement, more lightning totems = more dps, etc)
    That's not because of less "individual responsibility" that's because of a) the certainty of having every raid buff and b) an increased amount of mini cds such as totem and skull banner. Oh and you're totally implying that 10 man isn't balanced around that, they don't scale linearly and percentage comparisons like that are pretty much void.

  15. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    On 25 man, there's less individual responsibility, which means you have more time to DPS. Just look at logs, 25 man dps is higher than 10 man dps on practically every fight, due to less individual responsibility, and more cooldowns being stacked. And 6 healing 25 man is not underhealing. You need to look at the % of the raid being DPS, not the % being healers. in a 25 man, when 6 healing, 68% of the raid is DPS. In a 10 man, only 50% of the raid is DPS when 3 healing, and even when 2 healing (which is not really advised when progressing imperiel vizier or blade lord), it's still only 60% opposed to 68%, so ofcource dps requirements on 25 man will be higher, a bigger portion of the raid is DPS, and you get slightly more uptime in 25 man, and more buff stacking. (more stampeding roars = less movement, more lightning totems = more dps, etc)
    Exactly. These are the types of basic fundamentals that some of the more disillusioned 25m raiders don't seem to grasp. They have had their sacred cow of epics to milk for a while now and I could see why they would be reluctant to give it up in order to level the playing field.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  16. #736
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    10-man is harder cuz u onli hav 1 combat rez n if 1 guy diez ur totali fucked xdddxxxdxdxxd

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    On 25 man, there's less individual responsibility, which means you have more time to DPS. Just look at logs, 25 man dps is higher than 10 man dps on practically every fight, due to less individual responsibility, and more cooldowns being stacked. And 6 healing 25 man is not underhealing. You need to look at the % of the raid being DPS, not the % being healers. in a 25 man, when 6 healing, 68% of the raid is DPS. In a 10 man, only 50% of the raid is DPS when 3 healing, and even when 2 healing (which is not really advised when progressing imperiel vizier or blade lord), it's still only 60% opposed to 68%, so ofcource dps requirements on 25 man will be higher, a bigger portion of the raid is DPS, and you get slightly more uptime in 25 man, and more buff stacking. (more stampeding roars = less movement, more lightning totems = more dps, etc)
    Do you know why is dps higher in 25 man? It's because it's designed with having all raid buffs around and more cds due...guess what, needing more dps per player to meet enrage timer on every single boss.Tighter enrage timer, more damage on the raid, more dps needed per person in 25 man setting require more raid wide cooldowns otherwise it would be impossible to kill bosses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Exactly. These are the types of basic fundamentals that some of the more disillusioned 25m raiders don't seem to grasp. They have had their sacred cow of epics to milk for a while now and I could see why they would be reluctant to give it up in order to level the playing field.
    That's so ridiculous...That coming from a guy that said 10 mans have tighter enrage timers. I asked you above and gave you example of DPS checks last two tiers for both 10 and 25 man with numbers. If you want to prove your 'theory' you have a nice chance now. So let's hear it.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-01-12 at 03:07 PM.

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    As far as 10 man guilds, they would probably have more difficulties, because they would need to recruit to expand their roster by 50%, but would hopefully have 6+ months notice to do it. They would have to choose between opening heavy recruitment, or merging with another 10 man guild. 2 10 man guilds that merge would probably have just about exactly the correct roster size by the start of the next expansion assuming roster turn over.
    As 10man Hardcore Raider, we are happy if we a get a single capable Recruit within Months.

    And you cannot merge 10man Raids like "now Kiss" and that's it, merging Guilds is often very difficult because you cannot have a single supreme leader and your raid often ends up in 2 groups, former Guild A and former Guild B which causes a problem if ever tensions between raid members arise.

  19. #739
    As a dude who raids in both 10s and 25s, I find this entire discussion pretty fucking stupid. 10s are easier in some situations, 25s are more difficult in others. The amount of generalizations and overall inept assumption players from either camp make about the other group are laughable at best and outright depressingly contrived at worst. Unfortunately, due to the competitive nature of this game, I think 25M raiders will always see 10M raiders as "inferior" because of the inherent lack of logistical effort needed to organize the latter. Personally, however, I will say that the amount of pressure for me to perform optimally in my 10M guild is much higher than in my 25M guild.

    I am, however, unemployed atm so my raiding situation will likely be changing soon. >_>;

  20. #740
    Wish mods would delete threads with responses that was 25vs10 when op clearly stating not wanting to discuss this.

    on topic

    key points:


    * 25mans are harder to manage for guild leaders
    * avarage skill in each guild are signifcantly lower in 25 then 10 due to being more in numbers.
    * certain fights are easier or harder on 25 due to various reasons.
    * harder to have substitutes in 10man guilds
    * loot is similar and not enough reward in 25 to make up for the work (accepted world firsts is not a valid reason lol)

    Blizzard solution which be based on those facts that we all know. I assume a fix to the problem would bring 25man down to 20 to get more easy comparissons between the 2 types of raid sizes, it would close the gap.
    Another solution which totally contradict blizzards "bring the player not the class" philosophy is to limit the number of each class you can bring.For 10man the limit could be 2 for 25 it could be 3-4.

    You could also splitt them again but in another way. keep the raid sizes but have 2 completely different raids for each size with different loot and tiers and if you do one you can't do the other as you get saved to both when you do one, but 1 will be 25 man only and the other 10 man only, related theme but 2 different parts of the lore of the place, also if you get achievements for 1 dungeon you can never ever get it for the next dungeon as this achievement "table" will be activated the first time you enter the dungeon.
    I don't think you can have these 2 raid sizes and do the same content and not have arguements and one side being favorable, you need to make it a real choice not a easy way out.
    I know like 0.01% want to see everything in the game but a small price to pay for the greater good.

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