Cow Clicking

[Crawford]

Keep your ridiculous nonsense to yourself please. Have a bit of respect for other players and how they wish to play the game, Vast majority of people I know that use LFR (including myself) are good players, old raiders, that have spent the last 7 years playing this game, and are now at a point in their life where scheduled raiding just doesn't fit in. While LFR is not particularly challenging, it lets those of us that no longer have the time, beable to keep a small amount of progression going on their characters, and see content, that I know I certainly wouldn't be seeing if LFR didn't exsist, due to time restraints.

LFR is in my opinion a fantastic feature, for all of the above reasons.

That's the point I'm at in my life as well. If I really wanted to be in a raid guild, I'd server transfer to find one. Scheduling my time around something like that is less appealing than it used to be. And there are a lot fewer of the 2-nights-a-week normal mode guilds than there used to be, because LFR provides a new path of least resistance.

And LFR is a very poor alternative to raiding, even the easier raids like Kara or WotLK 10-mans. It doesn't feel like my effort or performance yield rewards. It feels that the rewards accrue as a consequence of spending a certain amount of time playing. And I feel like many of the players I see in LFR are scrubs. It makes me angry to see people doing very close to nothing in LFR; afking or dying intentionally on the pull so they can tab out, or just doing less damage than I could do in green gear or at level 85. It makes the whole enterprise seem empty when the group can succeed despite this kind of performance, and it makes the rewards seem pointless when people who play this way get them. They might as well just show up in the mailbox.

I really wish I could use cross-server friends lists to connect with groups running normal modes, the way I can with RBGs.

[Immitis]

I understand this, but are you okay with this? Video games get more and more popular. Old people, young people, men, women, nerds, jocks, girly girls, EVERYONE is playing them. But does this mean its okay to totally sell out like this?

Blizzards ads for the new, even easier WoW!

"BC Heroics got ya down? Is putting CC on your bars and using them too hard? Is wiping totally lame? Well have we got news for you! Wrath heroics just require your whole team to run at mob packs and hit your AOE spell over and over! CC? What the hell is that!? Healing? Who cares?! Block, dodge and parry? WHATS THAT!? Just stack health! Don't like being helpful, nice or responsible in groups? We have LFD now! You can port in naked and scream obscenities the whole team now!!! Want to raid, but don't feel like taking the time to apply in a whisper, or online to a good guild? Who cares! Now just afk through our new LFR system! Get easy loot and see the story! "

I know its over the top, but I really don't feel like any of the heroics were ever too hard. I sometimes had to tank in BC with no pants/chest just so I could get mana back. Cata heroics weren't hard, unless you think dying at all, ever = too hard. I don't think I am a special snowflake, but the state of the game in general is something that effects us all. If I wanted to play a farmville game, I would play that. I don't hate casuals, or want them kicked out, or scared away, but there has to be a point when things just get TOO EASY for anyone. In fact, if anyone is a special snowflake, its those casuals that want the whole game to cater to them and their schedules.

In Vanilla I was still in high school. I had AP/honors classes. I was on the wrestling team at the 145lb weight class. I had a girlfriend. I had a job at a fast food place. I had a group of best friends that I had met in ROTC/Engineering core classes. We got together and played Risk/Monopoly/Halo/ once a week or so. I was in Boy Scout and am now an Eagle scout. I joined WoW around patch 1.4 or something. I never remember bitching about any of the stuff people are upset about now. Didn't have enough time to raid because of school? I was just happy that I ever got to at all. That my guild let some nooby like me join. I was courteous. I always had food/pots/reagents/repair money/an extra weapon etc. I was on time. I tried my best to learn my class and know what to do. I talked to my class officer and other players to learn my class/boss fights. I asked what I could do better if we wiped, or what I could do to improve. SOMEHOW I could do these simple tasks in WoW, even with a tough schedule.

I don't miss everything about WoW, but I miss lots of things about it. Sorry to ramble.

tbh im not the right person to ask this question. i play this game for the lore. always have since vanilla. i dont care about having the best gear or even doing challenging content. i do lfr because it tells me the story. if the only way i could get the story is to do hardcore heroic raids then i would but as long as i get the story i dont care and will continue to just do lfr and occasional normals when my guild needs me.

thats something i dont like about pvp. it has no story and even though gameplay wise its better in my opinion theres no story so i could care less.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 06:02 AM ----------

I really wish I could use cross-server friends lists to connect with groups running normal modes, the way I can with RBGs.

you can do that...

[Crawford]

you can do that...

Nope. Only for old raids. I might try doing server PuGs in 5.2. I have come to believe that guilds and server communities are antiquated concepts, and MMO games really need to adopt a post-facebook social-networking model that makes it easier to make friends and keep up with people you meet who are tackling similar content.

In the same way there needs to be something between LFR and Heroic raids, there really need to be social structures in between the random queue finder and the guild structure.

[Immitis]

Nope. Only for old raids. I might try doing server PuGs in 5.2.

you can do it with all raids i have a friend that does it all the time

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

tbh im not the right person to ask this question. i play this game for the lore. always have since vanilla. i dont care about having the best gear or even doing challenging content. i do lfr because it tells me the story. if the only way i could get the story is to do hardcore heroic raids then i would but as long as i get the story i dont care and will continue to just do lfr and occasional normals when my guild needs me.

thats something i dont like about pvp. it has no story and even though gameplay wise its better in my opinion theres no story so i could care less.

Fair enough.

[Deleted]

That's the point I'm at in my life as well. If I really wanted to be in a raid guild, I'd server transfer to find one. Scheduling my time around something like that is less appealing than it used to be. And there are a lot fewer of the 2-nights-a-week normal mode guilds than there used to be, because LFR provides a new path of least resistance.

They're still out there if you look for them, there are 4hour a week heroic guilds. If you don't want to look for them, then fine - I give up. But maybe you should think about changing game, instead of wanting the game to change.

you can do it with all raids i have a friend that does it all the time

Then your friend must be magic, you can't cross realm current tier raids - if you could, it would make recruiting a helluva lot easier.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

They're still out there if you look for them, there are 4hour a week heroic guilds. If you don't want to look for them, then fine - I give up. But maybe you should think about changing game, instead of wanting the game to change.



Then your friend must be magic, you can't cross realm current tier raids - if you could, it would make recruiting a helluva lot easier.

LOL if only all the people wanting the game to be easier would have taken that advice, we might not be having this discussion.

[Immitis]

They're still out there if you look for them, there are 4hour a week heroic guilds. If you don't want to look for them, then fine - I give up. But maybe you should think about changing game, instead of wanting the game to change.



Then your friend must be magic, you can't cross realm current tier raids - if you could, it would make recruiting a helluva lot easier.

eh maybe i misheard him or something then. couldve sworn it was possible

[SherbertLand]

I don't think Mu'ru progression among top guilds would have been nearly as compelling if there had been an easymode version that random groups of people with ungemmed gear killed the day he became available.

But segregating raids into normal and heroic versions really opened up progression possibilities for a lot of guilds, while still maintaining super-hard challenges for the most elite players. Then LFR just killed the midrange raid community.

You think getting as many shamans as possible is a challenge?

[Deleted]

eh maybe i misheard him or something then. couldve sworn it was possible

Old tiers are available, but they've never opened it up for current tier - as much as it would be handy for recruiting / the odd raid with crossrealm friends, I'm frankly glad they haven't. It would cause absolute chaos to raiding guilds and be the final nail in the coffin of realms actually mattering. Glad they've held back on it, despite how painful it is to tell someone who's transfered realm that they've failed trial.

The cynical part of me can't ignore the absolute fortune they're making from raiders having to transfer too.

[Airwaves]

This is false. There were more guild tags than ever seen on normal mode boss kills in DS, but DS lasted from December 2011 until September 2012, and there was a stacking debuff on the raid that scaled to 35%. By the end, the normal mode raid was essentially just as easy as LFR, and probably easier, so a lot of pickup groups killed bosses in it.

Which is fine. But there are not more guilds than ever tackling current content in tier 14. There are very few on my server. My guild was a raid guild, and LFR killed it. Just sucked away the motivation to raid.

Which was while LFR was out. That was my point.

[shocktopuslol]

False. Under the old system progression there was a significant barrier of entry into the current tier of raiding; why do you think Badges of Justice were introduced in the first place?

Why is having a barrier of entry a bad thing? it means people actually need to gear up and run through older content before they can move onto higher level raids.
that's what a tiered system is about.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I wish I did receive better rewards for playing better than others, but the only reward I usually get is having to spend less time on the game rather than being rewarded better for my performance. I feel penalized for playing better when doing things such as 5mans, scenarios and LFR. It is not fun to feel like you're doing all the work and everyone else is mooching off you. I feel like there should be more rewarding solo content for people like me who don't have the time or inclination to get a group of friends to do 5mans with or lfr with. I want to be rewarded for what I do without having the reward diminished by some random person benefiting from it. Sure it is selfish but that is part of why I play games, to indulge in selfish behavior without it being at the expense of others.

[sam86]

TLDR: "I am a special snowflake and demand the ability to wall the general population off from what I believe is my content."

The fact of the matter is that the game only became popular once the system was relaxed to permit more casual playstyles and see a democratization of the content. The average player is not patient and/or competent enough to spend time on challenge modes, early Cata heroics, etc.

You are looking for competence in places that were designed to be as permissive as possible.

Agree with you 100%, don't want to add anything more

[LazarusLong]

Why is having a barrier of entry a bad thing? it means people actually need to gear up and run through older content before they can move onto higher level raids.
that's what a tiered system is about.

Because you ran out of people to recruit. I'v been officer, RL and GM in three guilds during TBC. Recruiting was not sustainable.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Blizzard have painted themselves into a corner over their game design; they cant and wont change it at this point. the fact is the only people still playing this game that want a gaming challenge are the raiders; and they see everything else (levelling, dailies and so on) as stuff they just have to get through.

the comparison with Zynga is one i have been making for some time. the gameplay is simplistic. all threat of failure has been removed. the thing that astonishes me is that there are so many people still willing to pay a subscription for something that can effectively get for free through Facebook. if you dont raid, what is left that represents a gaming challenge?

and at this point, they cant add the difficulty back in. the remaining raiders will see it as increasing the obstacle between them and what they see as the "proper" game. all the rest just want a game where they can turn their brain off and just click. if levelling were suddenly put back to vanilla or TBC difficulty, it wouldnt bring any of the lapsed players back, but it would cause a massive number of those that are used to simplicity to give up and leave the game.

at this point i dont believe large parts of WoW can even qualify as a game. a game has to have some degree of challenge. a game has to have risk v reward. large parts of WoW now have no challenge at all. and its all reward and no risk. unless you count the atrophy of your game-playing abilities as a risk!

[ipaq]

TLDR: "I am a special snowflake and demand the ability to wall the general population off from what I believe is my content."

The fact of the matter is that the game only became popular once the system was relaxed to permit more casual playstyles and see a democratization of the content. The average player is not patient and/or competent enough to spend time on challenge modes, early Cata heroics, etc.

You are looking for competence in places that were designed to be as permissive as possible.

There is casual players and there is window lickers.

Don't defend the window lickers.

[slime]

Of course, which is why there is specialized content available to those that truly want to invest the time and effort; Challenge Modes, Heroic raids, Achievements, etc.

Expecting that to be incorporated into the main body of content is ridiculous and will only lead to the early-Cata blunder.

My first two weeks in cata were awesome. Soon after I would come to realize how bad cata actually was - but there are at least the difficult, fun-to-play dungeons. My first non-heroics and even first heroics were like whoa, did the group just wipe on the first boss? Nice, finally something to overcome - not spend 15 minutes clicking through. But I understand your perspective comes from the profit making side that this was a blunder - seems with time the OP's opinion (which I share) has become a minority opinion to be had.

[Deleted]

What most people don't seem to realize is that it wasn't the casuals who demanded access to raids. It was Blizzard who thought that it wasn't worth designing content for 1% of the player base. They made LFR without any big cries of the casuals about not being able to raid. Blizzard wanted to create content for everyone and not just the top elite players (who still get some love with heroic-only bosses/phases).

[ipaq]

What most people don't seem to realize is that it wasn't the casuals who demanded access to raids. It was Blizzard who thought that it wasn't worth designing content for 1% of the player base. They made LFR without any big cries of the casuals about not being able to raid. Blizzard wanted to create content for everyone and not just the top elite players (who still get some love with heroic-only bosses/phases).

The window lickers cried them a river for 5 years... they where jealous of ppl in T3.