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  1. #361
    It's not about who is at the top of a stupid meter, it's about downing the boss as a team.

  2. #362
    Hahaha OP I bet you don't remember the type of DPS that as long as they were topping charts they didn't care about stealing aggro because they wouldn't use any CD to reduce their threat and of course they wouldn't stop DPSing becuase ththey wouldnt be top 1 on the DPS charts... yet you come here whining about Vengeance...

    The vengeance problem was created by those dps that wouldnt care about controlling their aggro just because "they wanted to top dps"
    Last edited by Moinaldo; 2013-01-13 at 05:20 PM.

  3. #363
    Tanks should tank, let dps do their job. Vengeance is terrible and should be changed, make abilities generate X% more threat during Y% seconds.

  4. #364
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    As soon as Blizzard buffed the threat from Defensive Stance/Righteous Fury/Blood Presence/Bear Form back during (IIRC) 4.2, Vengeance became superfluous. It's high time it was removed, as I've yet to see a decent reason for it being in the game.

    Hell, even prior to 4.2, it was unnecessary - but I digress.

  5. #365
    most fights tanks arent meant to be top dps, imo its fine, it actually makes tanking a bit more exciting, I'm more annoyed at how our dps flucutates between fights rather than being stable though : P

  6. #366
    Dreadlord Chuckadoodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Tanks should tank, let dps do their job. Vengeance is terrible and should be changed, make abilities generate X% more threat during Y% seconds.
    Here let me through this at you, Vengeance is fine, everyone do their jobs kill the boss get loot move forward in progression as a raid TEAM...
    Ideally no one has ever hit the level cap of the last expansion, looked at their dungeon blues, and thought "I win."

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...all/chuckabear

  7. #367
    Titan Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    That means your DPS are playing wrong.

    Our DPS destroy our Tanks usually.

    I say usually because there's always one or two people who lag behind because of gear and barely beat them.

    Perfect example: our Monk and DK tanks have about a 498 iLevel, and our sub in Paladin DPS who has a 468 iLevel barely beat them. See the gear difference? He still beat them.
    Destil I thank you once again, toke the words right outta my mouth.
    I don't always hunt things, But when I do, It's because they're things & I'm a Bear.


  8. #368
    Tanks doing 1 million dps on heroic windlord says hi

  9. #369
    I certainly think that Vengeance could use some work. To quote part of Lucetia
    Yes, let's just amplify tank abilities threat by +500% (or some stupid number) so all you do is go back to autoattacking a boss because that was so much more fun.
    Fundamentally the current Vengeance mechanic is no different than the way tank aggro worked before. Allow tank to establish aggro, then go crazy. The aggro falloff is just different.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuckadoodle View Post
    Here let me through this at you, Vengeance is fine, everyone do their jobs kill the boss get loot move forward in progression as a raid TEAM...
    Tanks should care about threat and right now they don't.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    This is exactly the kind of attitude that vengeance and the wild powers Blizzard hands to tanks has caused.



    Actually, no. If you are on challenging content, you should need people to be alive for it. We've killed bosses with evasion when both tanks are down, we've killed bosses by kiting when both tanks are down. We've had ferals go bear in the olden days and use heart of the wild in the modern times. Yea, on average it's easier to recover from a dps missing, because you have more dps and you might not be doing something that stretches them- for most guilds, mechanics are more limiting than dps, because they wait until they overgear fights before trying them. But that doesn't make the tank "more important".

    Actually he is right and a general rule tanks are more important than a single dps its not an elitist point just how the game and encounters are designed especially in 25 man. Lose a DPS and your not to be lose a tank on a 2 tank fight and its a wipe. Its a simple game of numbers. You bring the minimum tanks for a fight ie 2 and the min healers and the maximum number of DPS so who in those conditions is expendable .... the DPS and every fight it the same. Tanking is the minority role because not many ppl want to be one and not many are actually needed.

    Why you see this simple fact as a insult when its how the game has always been I cannot fathom. You saying "you have evasion tanked a boss or kited one works only as a very shot solution and for only a few bosses its not going to kill a boss at 40% health.

    DPS are important and no boss would be killed without them, same goes for tanks and healer but from a single player roll it goes Tanks > Healer > DPS and thats beyond debate and we play in a game with the holy trinity
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
    Classic: "The tank is the driver, the healer is the fuel, and the DPS are the kids sitting in the back seat screaming and asking if they're there yet."
    Irony >> "do they even realize that having a state religion IS THE REASON WE LEFT BRITTEN? god these people are idiots"

  12. #372
    Actually just look: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/226658/rankings/players/

    This is my guild's ranking page, i rank on several fights, most of these im just equal or below the dps.. not too bad imo, theres only stone guard heroic and wnd lord where i vastly outdps my guild, but these fights are special... so if my guild can do equal or better dps than me when i rank i dont see the problem : O

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by zeekphreak View Post
    I certainly think that Vengeance could use some work. To quote part of Lucetia
    Fundamentally the current Vengeance mechanic is no different than the way tank aggro worked before. Allow tank to establish aggro, then go crazy. The aggro falloff is just different.
    As has been posted Vengeance is more than that, its a catchup mechanism. As in later tiers all the DPS will scale and there damage will go up and up while the tanks threat will not increase by much as on the new gears we get more dmg mitigation and avoidance and stam but not much more strength. So we gain survivability with new gear but not much threat. So Vengeance allows us to keep up artificially with the much boosted DPS.

    And its actually nice to be able to contribute some damage to a raid
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
    Classic: "The tank is the driver, the healer is the fuel, and the DPS are the kids sitting in the back seat screaming and asking if they're there yet."
    Irony >> "do they even realize that having a state religion IS THE REASON WE LEFT BRITTEN? god these people are idiots"

  14. #374
    The Insane Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Tanks should care about threat and right now they don't.
    No, they shouldn't. Tanks should care about doing their primary job: surviving. That's why Blizzard moved tank focus from threat to active defenses.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Tanks do everything, take dmg, position boss, dps boss. Healers heal, and dps do dps. Tanks are given far too much importance, and yes, healers and dps are just there to support tanks. MoP's raiding is nothing like any of the previous WoW versions.
    Their dps is just an arbitrary number. Its irrelevant.

    You're not going to replace any of your DPS with Tanks. The purpose of a tank has not changed to DPS, because they can't compete with DPS unless they're taking damage themself.
    They're still tanks, they maintain their primairy role.
    Their role isn't to DPS, they just happen to manage competitive numbers doing their tanking purpose.

    Everyone is so focussed on the crappy numbers displayed on a meter that they can't see past the fact that tanks just deal this amount of damage for threat scaling purpose.

    If they drop down damage of tanks, nothing will change, they will only tweak healthbars from bosses to compensate for this.
    They will still do the same thing they did before, but then threat becomes an issue with the ever so increasing DPS due to stat scaling.
    There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Actually just look: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/226658/rankings/players/

    This is my guild's ranking page, i rank on several fights, most of these im just equal or below the dps.. not too bad imo, theres only stone guard heroic and wnd lord where i vastly outdps my guild, but these fights are special... so if my guild can do equal or better dps than me when i rank i dont see the problem : O
    Those are rankings among your class/spec only. You could rank 1 on all those and still not actually rank in the fight overall the classes/specs.

  17. #377
    Pandaren Monk ThatsOurEric's Avatar
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    Who cares? If no one dies in the encounter and the job gets done, why complain? Just play and have fun.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Tanks should tank, let dps do their job. Vengeance is terrible and should be changed, make abilities generate X% more threat during Y% seconds.
    As told before.
    Vengeance is more then Damage. It also makes sure Tank bubbles and self heal and whatever scales with content.

  19. #379
    And to be honest ive been a tank since vanilla, started raiding in BC... I'm damn glad they got rid of the "Tank does 5-10% of the damage of a dps" design, it sucked balls to see myself do 100-200 dps when everybody else is doing 1000-1500, puts some more excitement in the role.

    I'd say tanking is at it's most fun it's ever been, high dps, dont have to bang your head to get threat, although the threat game was kinda fun in BC... active mitigation requires some thought, what's not to like? Leave our fun alone.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    As told before.
    Vengeance is more then Damage. It also makes sure Tank bubbles and self heal and whatever scales with content.
    You didn't need this in past expansions I don't get why you'd need it now.

    Vengeance is an extremely poor mechanic and pretty much offers the reverse of what not-so-capable tanks wanted to get into tanking. Instead of fixing the system blizzard just bump up base threat each tier so now anyone who even read their spells upon dinging (new player POV) can hold agro.

    Active tanking - I repeat - does not need to be tied to vengeance in the slightest and is not an excuse to keep such a failed mechanic ingame. We have had varying levels of implementation with active tanking since at least TBC, dk's were known for their active tanking in cata which did not run off vengeance at all, etc.

    @Dreyen "our fun"? Ever considered some people dropped tank because it became so passive and boring? Others enjoyed the old style, and while you can't argue preferences you can argue a mechanic that has done nothing but add issues since it's implementation.

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