5.2 Shaman changes

[Deleted]

Just a train of thought... Why does elemental always have the 5% increase on cast time with lightning bolt, whereas e.g. warlocks only move slower when they're actually moving while casting? It doesn't really make sense to me, why can't unleashed lightning increase cast time by 5% while moving and leave it as it is while standing still.

[Kralljin]

Just a train of thought... Why does elemental always have the 5% increase on cast time with lightning bolt, whereas e.g. warlocks only move slower when they're actually moving while casting? It doesn't really make sense to me, why can't unleashed lightning increase cast time by 5% while moving and leave it as it is while standing still.

Because it's a Warlock Talent.

For at least 1 Mage & Warlock Spec the usual Balance logic does not apply.

Rule 73

[Recom]

Rule 83

Shamans are always the ones getting f*cked ?

[Kralljin]

Shamans are always the ones getting f*cked ?

7-> G
3-> C

can't count properly ;(

[Deleted]

It doesnt really scale with haste either, you dont get more ticks with more haste, so in the end, one EQ will still do same damage, regardless of if you have 15% or 150% haste thanks to the CD. (why does it have CD anyway?)

Does Lightning Bolts damage increase with haste? The cast time gets reduced=scale with haste.

[Shauren]

Does Lightning Bolts damage increase with haste? The cast time gets reduced=scale with haste.

But this means you are able to cast more lightning bolts during the fight (which is what increases your total damage done), but the number of EQ casts remains the same because of its cooldown

[lolshammy]

But this means you are able to cast more lightning bolts during the fight (which is what increases your total damage done), but the number of EQ casts remains the same because of its cooldown

The contribution to your total dps from EQ might stay the same, but if you use the extra time from the shorter cast to cast something else (say, a part of a CL) then you're doing more dps than without the haste. I believe you have to look at the total encounter for this type of comparison.

Edit: I'm not necessarily fond of EQ anyways because it's easy to lose that theoretical dps gain (adds move out of the aoe, or maybe you lose that dps time gained for whatever reason), just sayin that doesn't sound like a legitimate knock on the spell.

[Deleted]

But this means you are able to cast more lightning bolts during the fight (which is what increases your total damage done), but the number of EQ casts remains the same because of its cooldown

His original argument (which I responded to) was that it didn't scale with haste, which it does. Hearthstone doesn't scale with haste

[Omanley]

Anything that lets you control the opponent is a CC.

I specifically used the term "actual" CC, or "real" CC to indicate a CC taking all of the target's control, requiring either a trinket, damage or dispell from someone else or a special ability like tremor, blink, ice block, bubble etc.

Even with that said, if you say Hex is a CC because it takes the option of casting aways (silence), you'll have to also count every silence and interrupt and knockback and whatelse as CC. You can do that if you want to, but usually when people talk about CC, they mean the above; actually taking away control, making the target unable to do anything.
We dont have an actual CC in Hex. It is not a stun either.
If you put it into the same drawer as roots, silences and interupts, fine, but even compared to other silences, it falls short, as it breaks on damage and has a cast time.

Hex is a heavily restricted CC (if you're generous enough to call it even that), just like CPT is a heavily restricted stun. Shamans should have at least one CC which is dependable to use (instant for melee, no cd for dmg caster) and is an actual CC.

Actual CCs at the end of the day matter much more then roots and snares. Melees nowadays have lots of snare/root breakers, but not as much CC breakers (though they do exist as well). That's why druids in arenas use tons of cyclones, but only every now and then a root.

It's not even the fact that Hex does not take away the targets' control which I am angry about. It is the fact that we have no ability at all that does that. Hex is in many ways designed like an actual CC but lacks the aspect which matters most. It leads one to the conclusion that blizz considers it as one. But it isn't. If it was blizzard's intent to give us a silence, they failed also (cast time, destroyable). Like so many times before, I get the feeling that blizz couldn't decide on what to make out of Hex, so they slapped simply everything on it (but only the bad parts), ruining it.

Yes, a hexed target does not heal itself like a polymorphed. That is pretty much the only downside of any CC which Hex was not burdened with. Doesn't change the fact that it overall is still bad. Shamans provide ~okay~ CC as a healer (though paladins and esp druids IMO are better), but from a dps pov, shamans are bad in CC.
Even when snaring/rooting, we have to sacrifice. To root, we need to take certain talents (so freedom is not an option really), and to snare as ele we have to forsake burst (shocks).

[Endus]

I specifically used the term "actual" CC, or "real" CC to indicate a CC taking all of the target's control, requiring either a trinket, damage or dispell from someone else or a special ability like tremor, blink, ice block, bubble etc.

The issue is that you're redefining terminology for no reason other than to falsely attack a Shaman ability.

It doesn't matter if Hex isn't a "real" CC, by your measure. That just means it's something else, and should be valued according to whatever measures are appropriate for that something else. You can't change the definition of CC to exclude Hex, and then claim it's a "bad" CC. Lava Burst is also a pretty terrible CC. Does that mean Lava Burst is useless or "bad"? No.

It's a fundamentally dishonest tactic. Not only is redefining the terms unwarranted, even if you DO redefine them, that just means the ability isn't measured according to your new definition, but by a completely separate standard.

If you put it into the same drawer as roots, silences and interupts, fine, but even compared to other silences, it falls short, as it breaks on damage and has a cast time.

No, it doesn't fall short. Because it silences everything, not just spells, like most silences.

Shamans should have at least one CC which is dependable to use (instant for melee, no cd for dmg caster) and is an actual CC.

Not only have you not given any reason for this, you're ignoring that we do have a host of CC abilities outside of slows. Earthgrab/Frozen Power. Capacitor Totem. PE's stun. And so on. Classes aren't balanced according to a checklist, making sure that every class has A, B, C, D, and E. They're balanced on the collective performance of their specific suite of abilities.

[Raiju]

Not only have you not given any reason for this, you're ignoring that we do have a host of CC abilities outside of slows. Earthgrab/Frozen Power. Capacitor Totem. PE's stun. And so on. Classes aren't balanced according to a checklist, making sure that every class has A, B, C, D, and E. They're balanced on the collective performance of their specific suite of abilities.

It's all well and good saying that, but when was the last time I ever heard of someone being worried about a shamans CC (by your definition)?

You can argue semantics all you like but your suite of abilities doesn't hold up against other classes - unless you want to claim otherwise. That would require stepping out of the politician type responses though..

[Endus]

It's all well and good saying that, but when was the last time I ever heard of someone being worried about a shamans CC (by your definition)?

You can argue semantics all you like but your suite of abilities doesn't hold up against other classes - unless you want to claim otherwise. That would require stepping out of the politician type responses though..

I've been saying, pretty much since mid-beta, that Elemental in particular was lagging behind. Resto's still pretty strong, and Enhancement has been performing well at least in PvE, and not as poorly in PvP as Ele.

The issue is that you can't make up bullshit reasons to claim Shaman design is worse than it actually is.

It's like if I said "maroon is a perfectly nice red color", and you responded with "it's not red red, though, so it's a terrible awful color and should feel bad." Changing the definition of "red" to only mean "real red" doesn't say anything about maroon. Just that it no longer fits your definition.

Even if you want to redefine CCs so that Hex isn't a "real CC", there's absolutely nothing that states every spec must have a "real CC". That's the missing premise necessary to draw any conclusions about Hex being "bad" because it doesn't fit your new definition. You need to prove that premise first before you draw that conclusion, and nobody's even made an attempt at doing so.


And seriously, "politician type responses"? I'm not the one trying to redefine common jargon because it doesn't fit with the conclusion I want to draw. I'm not pursuing an agenda, here. My goal is not to "prove" that Elemental is just fine. I've been saying for literally months that it is not. But dishonest tactics like this kind of redefinition of terminology leads to our issues being dismissed, because the arguments being used to describe them are made-up bollocks.

You can describe our issues just fine without resorting to them. Our sustained DPS is low, we've been too easily shut down during burst, and we lacked defense. Some of those look to be fixed somewhat in 5.2, but the sustained DPS is likely still an issue. We're not suffering because Hex has a cooldown, or because it lets people run around like headless chickens. That distracts from the real issues. Hex works just fine as an ubersilence. No, it doesn't keep the target in one place. That's irrelevant, it's just something it doesn't do. Much like how Chain Lightning doesn't root the target, and Purge doesn't cleanse spells defensively. You need to evaluate spells on what they DO do, not on irrelevant things you're going to complain that they DON'T do.

If you're going to say "Hex is a terribad CC because CC is supposed to root people!", then I'm going to point out that, by your own definition, Hex is not a CC. So stop comparing it to one. It's also not a sandwich, but its inability to fill me up when I'm hungry does not make it a bad ability.

[oblivionx]

/shrug

If you check raidbots specscore over the longest period available (2 years) it's the lowest performing spec in the game.

Soooooooooo, people aren't wrong to critique design. If you go back to vanilla, which logs obviously don't exist from, elemental is overall the worst performing spec in the game.

It's not so terrible you can't make it work and can't actually perform well with it, but on average, it's still the worst performing spec in the game.

Shaman as a class is probably the least performing class in the game.

Perhaps it's about time something positive be done for shamans, instead of trying to argue that being the bottom is anything but being at the bottom.

[Endus]

/shrug

If you check raidbots specscore over the longest period available (2 years) it's the lowest performing spec in the game.

Soooooooooo, people aren't wrong to critique design. If you go back to vanilla, which logs obviously don't exist from, elemental is overall the worst performing spec in the game.

It's not so terrible you can't make it work and can't actually perform well with it, but on average, it's still the worst performing spec in the game.

Shaman as a class is probably the least performing class in the game.

Perhaps it's about time something positive be done for shamans, instead of trying to argue that being the bottom is anything but being at the bottom.

Get back to me when Hex has anything to do with Raidbots performance.

Seriously, there's no reason to take my quotes out of context, when I've been arguing for a 10% buff focusing on our sustained damage since before MoP went live.

[oblivionx]

Get back to me when Hex has anything to do with Raidbots performance.

Seriously, there's no reason to take my quotes out of context, when I've been arguing for a 10% buff focusing on our sustained damage since before MoP went live.

Hex is a symptom of the overall malaise of the shaman class.

It's a half ass cc. Just like the overall implementation of most things shaman.

I've stuck with it forever and I enjoy it (elemental), but really I don't think supporting blizzard in their bad design of the class is anything the resembles a solution.

[Deleted]

I've been saying, pretty much since mid-beta, that Elemental in particular was lagging behind. Resto's still pretty strong, and Enhancement has been performing well at least in PvE, and not as poorly in PvP as Ele.

The issue is that you can't make up bullshit reasons to claim Shaman design is worse than it actually is.

It's like if I said "maroon is a perfectly nice red color", and you responded with "it's not red red, though, so it's a terrible awful color and should feel bad." Changing the definition of "red" to only mean "real red" doesn't say anything about maroon. Just that it no longer fits your definition.

Even if you want to redefine CCs so that Hex isn't a "real CC", there's absolutely nothing that states every spec must have a "real CC". That's the missing premise necessary to draw any conclusions about Hex being "bad" because it doesn't fit your new definition. You need to prove that premise first before you draw that conclusion, and nobody's even made an attempt at doing so.


And seriously, "politician type responses"? I'm not the one trying to redefine common jargon because it doesn't fit with the conclusion I want to draw. I'm not pursuing an agenda, here. My goal is not to "prove" that Elemental is just fine. I've been saying for literally months that it is not. But dishonest tactics like this kind of redefinition of terminology leads to our issues being dismissed, because the arguments being used to describe them are made-up bollocks.

You can describe our issues just fine without resorting to them. Our sustained DPS is low, we've been too easily shut down during burst, and we lacked defense. Some of those look to be fixed somewhat in 5.2, but the sustained DPS is likely still an issue. We're not suffering because Hex has a cooldown, or because it lets people run around like headless chickens. That distracts from the real issues. Hex works just fine as an ubersilence. No, it doesn't keep the target in one place. That's irrelevant, it's just something it doesn't do. Much like how Chain Lightning doesn't root the target, and Purge doesn't cleanse spells defensively. You need to evaluate spells on what they DO do, not on irrelevant things you're going to complain that they DON'T do.

If you're going to say "Hex is a terribad CC because CC is supposed to root people!", then I'm going to point out that, by your own definition, Hex is not a CC. So stop comparing it to one. It's also not a sandwich, but its inability to fill me up when I'm hungry does not make it a bad ability.

Let's rather not go off-topic and discuss definitions of different terms. No offence.

[Endus]

Hex is a symptom of the overall malaise of the shaman class.

It's a half ass cc. Just like the overall implementation of most things shaman.

The issue here lies in your expectations, not in the ability itself. It's a really decent silence. The issues you have with it compared to other CCs aren't relevant, since it doesn't serve the same exact purpose as those, precisely because of the differences you mention.

[oblivionx]

The issue is that you can't make up bullshit reasons to claim Shaman design is worse than it actually is.

What reason is there exactly for bad design?

If you have been paying attention to blizzard's stance on shamans since BC... It's basically been a statement they erase next expansion.

But, if forcing the discussion to pvp is the goal... well elemental is terrible and has been mostly terrible since vanilla when we could frost shock things forever. The best tactic as elemental if you are caught in a world pvp situation is to mount and fly high until they go away. You might have to be patient though, as even the baddies know that elemental shamans are a free kill.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 10:51 PM ----------

The issue here lies in your expectations, not in the ability itself. It's a really decent silence. The issues you have with it compared to other CCs aren't relevant, since it doesn't serve the same exact purpose as those, precisely because of the differences you mention.

The issues I have with it compared to other cc's is relevant as most of the time those cc's are what kills me. ;p

[Kralljin]

What reason is there exactly for bad design?

If you have been paying attention to blizzard's stance on shamans since BC... It's basically been a statement they erase next expansion.

But, if forcing the discussion to pvp is the goal... well elemental is terrible and has been mostly terrible since vanilla when we could frost shock things forever. The best tactic as elemental if you are caught in a world pvp situation is to mount and fly high until they go away. You might have to be patient though, as even the baddies know that elemental shamans are a free kill.

Elemental was FotM during Wotlk from S6-S8, LSD was King during this time.

And Elemental is a free kill for Melees that blow CD's, against Caster i am often able to put up a decent fight.

[Sarevokcz]

The contribution to your total dps from EQ might stay the same, but if you use the extra time from the shorter cast to cast something else (say, a part of a CL) then you're doing more dps than without the haste. I believe you have to look at the total encounter for this type of comparison.

Thats still EQ not really scalling with haste tho. And in situations where you spam EQ asap, you still dont get anything, because the tiny reduction you get from regular haste we have doesnt allow you for extra spell inbetween EQs anyway, nor will it allow you cast EQ sooner, since most of the time your spells wont fit exactly between EQ CD

His original argument (which I responded to) was that it didn't scale with haste, which it does. Hearthstone doesn't scale with haste

any scalling of casttime has basically zero impact on overall dps of the spell. thats why I said "doesnt really scale with haste" as "in any useful way." But hey, if we claimed that CL doesnt scale past 50% haste, you would likely claim it does, even tho you get absolutely zero value out of it, because you have to be so literal.