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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    The Tanks have now become "An important part of the raid DPS" which shouldn't even be considered. When you do this, you skew their viability and cause for "Balance changes". It causes the problem when tanks might start to hit too hard in PvP (Early Prot Wars in Wrath as an example). Now not only will people pick a tank on their mitigation/avoidance, they will pick them on their DPS capabilities, which causes a huge imbalance between tanking classes.
    Vengeance was supposed to be a mechanic that got more people to play tanks when people were complaining about 45 minute queues. If someone rolls a tank 'cause they're under the impression that they have tons of DPS, let 'em. They'll find out how it works soon enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    BC Days? Never said get rid of secondary specs. Building a second set of gear takes no time at all. My DK has 4 set of gear currently, PVE DPS and Tank and PvP DPS and Tank.
    I have a finite amount of time to play. I'm maxing out my valor each week to get the best tanking gear I can. I have little interest in getting another set of gear unless it's to run with guildies that want to try their hand at tanking. Furthermore, I don't know of any DPS players that say, "Whoops! I forgot I'm doing dailies, better swap my gear! Hell, they even made it so Spirit counted as hit for healers that wanted to switch to casters. Sure, there are other stat priorities between those, but not much. Without reforging, the best healer in my guild can crank out 60k in a heroic by going to Shadow. We've always been the ones to have multiple sets of gear, Stamina, Avoidance, DPS, resist, etc. They stopped with a lot of it (and thank god, my bags couldn't take it any more), but why go back to forcing it on people, because DPS's pride is injured for a few fights in one raid tier?


    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    A pack of 15 lvl 90 mobs(real mobs, not low health adds) gives my DK around 10-15k AP from Vengeance. In the daily quest areas, you're not likely to pull more than that(I think 18 or 19 is the highest I've managed to get on me at once) without losing some of them due to them resetting. And with a pack like that, with vengeance stacked that high, I can pull Death Strikes crits of over 100k. With no vengeance, if I decide to quest in frost, my Obliterates crit for 175k or more. So yeah, like the other dude said, you really need to be fighting a raid boss or a pack of heroic mobs for vengeance to really be stacking to anything worthwhile.
    Exactly, it's very situational. Playing as a warrior, I never see numbers that high while questing. I can pull off a Shield Slam crit for over 100k while running a heroic, but again, it's situational. It seems like people don't understand that to get the big numbers you need something that hits like a freight train beating on you. Try doing that without a healer and it's not gonna go well. On top of that, in following raid tiers, one of two things is going to happen. Tanks will continue to gear up for avoidance and mitigation, which will reduce that amount of vengeance you get. Fights with adds will skew that, but there's also fights where vengeance drops off, like when Tsulong goes to Day mode. The other thing that could happen is tanks will stack DPS gear, but while pushing out lots of damage, they destroy their survivability, making it very hard on healers and ultimately, the rest of the raid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Notamonk View Post
    Any fight that has extra ads that require cleaving or for the tank to hold aggro on will in turn give them higher dps because their abilities more often then not have a built in cleave component or they have an ability that they would use in an aoe situation that would allow them to hold aggro on the group of mobs while being able to hold aggro on the boss.

    Current play style of tanks in mop is awesome, and a hell of allot more fun then BC/LK. If they change it there will be a huge loss in the number of tanks except for tanks in raiding groups.
    Yep, and then back to the forums to say, "OMG, we asked you to nerf tanks, which made it more boring, now no one wants to play tanks!! Fix it!!!!"

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Notamonk View Post
    Any fight that has extra ads that require cleaving or for the tank to hold aggro on will in turn give them higher dps because their abilities more often then not have a built in cleave component or they have an ability that they would use in an aoe situation that would allow them to hold aggro on the group of mobs while being able to hold aggro on the boss.

    Current play style of tanks in mop is awesome, and a hell of allot more fun then BC/LK. If they change it there will be a huge loss in the number of tanks except for tanks in raiding groups.
    I love when people put their opinion as either fact or generally agreed upon.

  3. #443
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEss View Post
    Vengeance was supposed to be a mechanic that got more people to play tanks when people were complaining about 45 minute queues. If someone rolls a tank 'cause they're under the impression that they have tons of DPS, let 'em. They'll find out how it works soon enough.
    No it wasn't. It was to prevent the constant aggro issues tanks experienced at the end of Wrath and in raid settings where it was mathematically impossible to hold threat against some DPS. The Call-To-Arms feature was to get more tanks/healers into the queues to lower queue times, and that was mainly because Cata's initial difficulty was high enough that a lot of players started running friends/guild-only groups instead of queuing.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    No it wasn't. It was to prevent the constant aggro issues tanks experienced at the end of Wrath and in raid settings where it was mathematically impossible to hold threat against some DPS. The Call-To-Arms feature was to get more tanks/healers into the queues to lower queue times, and that was mainly because Cata's initial difficulty was high enough that a lot of players started running friends/guild-only groups instead of queuing.
    You're right, it just ends up making it more fun.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    No it wasn't. It was to prevent the constant aggro issues tanks experienced at the end of Wrath and in raid settings where it was mathematically impossible to hold threat against some DPS. The Call-To-Arms feature was to get more tanks/healers into the queues to lower queue times, and that was mainly because Cata's initial difficulty was high enough that a lot of players started running friends/guild-only groups instead of queuing.
    I don't know about methematically impossible. I definitely remember gemming all stam and having to hit taunt more than I do now though. :P I'll never forget my first tanking of BQL I was like "crap I just hit 80, they are going to rip off me", nope, AND I got the shield. :>

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by BaP View Post
    I play a war tank, if I am beating you in dps its your fault, either you are playing a sub-par spec or ( and this is my feeling) you just can't play !!!
    Either a troll or someone that never does raids.

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-01-14 at 04:56 PM.
    Here's my mage vs stuff youtube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/MrJackstar123?feature=mhee

  7. #447
    Deleted
    Vengeance got removed from PvP, so people are ok with it. In PvE - vengeance or not - dps should always top the tanks in normal conditions. Even with lower ilvl. If they don't, they are doing something wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    A highly insightful and intellectual post. Let's try this again.

    Currently vengeance is beyond fucking overpowered for tanks and it is not any dps' fault for doing less than a tank nor should they feel bad.
    Tanks are topping dps only in insane AoE fights. Other than that, I'm always above the tanks.

    LFG is full of shit players of course. in 95% of the cases it's me on top, tank second, and the two worthless dps doing half the tank's damage. The rest 5% is me being (slightly^^) surpassed by a better geared dps.

  8. #448
    Sounds like another jelly dps that wants to wear the big boy pants and be the leader but doesn't want to step to the front of the crowd and lead.


    If a tank is beating you at Dammage done on a single target fight you are simply a bad dps.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  9. #449
    Haha I think the OP is just a selfish raider suffering from a wounded epeen, heaven forbid you don't top every meter on every fight ever designed. Not saying I'm some super serious awesome raider, I have a decent amount of raid experience including some heroics, but I would applaud any tank that does some big dps for helping the raid succeed/go faster, not bitch about him beating me.

    The ONLY time tanks EVER beat well geared dps is on fights with mechanics that allow him/her to do so, like Feng, Mel'jarak or whatever, Empress that have already been mentioned. Obviously a tank getting hit by 6+ mobs racking up big vengeance will pump out some big dps, especially with aoe abilities designed to do just that (warrior revenge spam due to so many parries, dk heart strike cleave and blood boil, whatever the hell paladins do nowadays, druid thrash/swipe).

    Same thing in regards to healing as many tank mitigation abilites count as healing (death strike, shield barrier, monk guard/ox statue, etc.), thus with vengeance stacked high and the fact that these abilities scale with AP now, tanks can heal quite a bit. Again if I were a healer I'd say hey thanks tank for making my life easier.

    The only issue with vengeance was what it allowed some people to do things they shouldn't, like the 80 pally being invincible and soloing current content, which was justly hotfixed. We will have a problem with vengeance when you somehow see a tank bursting 200k+ on a single target fight like any well geared mage/warrior whatever can do.

    Vengeance and active mitigation have made a traditionally more boring role a little more attractive, which is wonderful. Each role of a raid has equal importance generally, varying between fights and mechanics.

    OP, go cry somewhere else. Like upstairs to your mommy.

    Or roll a tank

    Infracted. Keep your posts civil
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-01-14 at 05:41 PM.

  10. #450
    "Blizz took away a dps' pride"

    You lost me right there. Stop worrying about what other people are doing and play the game for yourself. Being able to dps well is not a thing you should pride yourself on. How about being drug free? Holding down a job, raising children.

    You can roll your face across the keyboard and dps. Roll a tank, see how thankless a job it can be. If anything, all dps in the game should be thanking tanks and healers every single time they open their pieholes.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthaxx View Post
    Having played a tank since TBC, i can only say that i despised the old model. Sure, it might be viewed as more skill based but the truth was that gear became a real issue at the end, and slight deviations in gear between tanks and DPS meant that there could be a wipe. Realistically, i should have phrased that as "Retarded DPS pull aggro and get the boss cleaving/breathing the raid and then blame the tank", but people would take offence. Perhaps of note, tanks do like to do damage too. You know, where's the reward in standing there dealing with ridiculously low numbers, or theoretical ones that aren't even shown within the game without an addon?
    I can't say I despised it, but it was frustrating. I was used to being a raid geared tank in instances going to blues and greens in heroics. I relearned, and never had my finger far from the taunt button in case of sudden aggro loss. Yeah, it required skill, but no, it wasn't fun.

    Also, does anyone else think that by eliminating Vengeance, the number of people playing tanks will be reduced?

  12. #452
    Tank damage was too high. That was never in question. That's why vengeance was hotfixed awhile back. That makes it all the more amusing that people arguing that that wasn't the case because they are flat out wrong. Vengeance is probably a necessary mechanic for now but it definitely can be a problem for balance. It will be interesting to see what Blizzard does going forward.

    Is tank damage still too high? On some fights it is, but most of the time no. I can pretty much guarentee you that Blizzard does not want tanks to be the top DPS on fights other than possibly some type of gimmick fight which doesn't mean it's ok for tanks to be in the top DPS at all really on any fight when you look at how many DPS specs there are in this game. Anybody arguing otherwise should really think hard about that.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanesia View Post
    Tank damage was too high. That was never in question. That's why vengeance was hotfixed awhile back.


    Nope. Hotfix was to make sure no more level 80 paladins went in to MSV to solo Elegon and Stone Guards.

    That being said, this horse is dead guys. Stop beating it.

  14. #454
    What I think, is that Blizzard overdid with vengeance. The Devs had stated repeatedly that they want hit/exp to feel useful to the tanks and not just stacking as much defensive stats as they could. So that was the intention behind introducing the active mitigation system. However, they now double-dip from stacking hit/exp - they can both smooth out damage intake and increase tank dps. While this alone is totally acceptable, the matter has been complicated by vengeance, which turned the reasonable increase in tank dps into something much larger than that. A tank who didn't cap his hit/exp would be doing around 50-60k dps on a single target fight, which would be roughly 25% behind a dps at a similiar gear level (for normal that is). However, it is not rare to see hit/exp-capped tanks to pull over 70-80k on the same fights without actually sacrificing too much of their survivability. The increase in dps is just disproportionate. Swap in a few pieces of dps gears (trinkets etc) and they would being pulling as much dps, if not higher, as the dps of similiar gear levels.
    But tbh, while most of the tanks beat out dps on multi-target fights (do not doubt this), there really is just one outlier that keeps on beating dps on single target fights - blood dks.

    While this may not be a problem for now this early after the change, it will soon be when the raids start to expect their tanks to pull out extraordinary damage to drag the raid through the contents instead of asking their dps to improve - after all, it is so much easier to ask the one under-performing tank to pull 10k more dps than asking every under-performing dps to pull 2k more.
    And now the tanks will not only have to manage their cooldowns, switch tanks, position the boss, tagging adds etc... but also pull enough dps or risk getting replaced.

    Consider the follow:
    'I am the main tank of our raid. I played a tank because I want to proudly stand toe-to-toe with our foe, attract its attention while our party unleash hell at a safe distance. I want to control and minimize the damage I take to lessen the burden on our healer so he is free to help whoever needs it.
    Wait, you are replacing me? Why? What, we don't have enough dps to beat the enrage timer? But I'm a tank? Rawrr.....'
    Last edited by taaveti; 2013-01-14 at 11:55 PM.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by nine3cubed View Post
    Nope. Hotfix was to make sure no more level 80 paladins went in to MSV to solo Elegon and Stone Guards.

    That being said, this horse is dead guys. Stop beating it.
    What horse? You mean that puddle of slurry over there?

    But you're right on the hot fix. No normal tank got anywhere close to his HP in Vengeance.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by nine3cubed View Post
    Nope. Hotfix was to make sure no more level 80 paladins went in to MSV to solo Elegon and Stone Guards.

    That being said, this horse is dead guys. Stop beating it.
    there have been several nerfs to vengeance since mop came out.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What horse? You mean that puddle of slurry over there?

    But you're right on the hot fix. No normal tank got anywhere close to his HP in Vengeance.
    on some fights like windlord and empress p2 it's possible.

  17. #457
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It's the difference between the main and off tank, the main tank does the top damage, the off tank is at the bottom (since he isn't tanking much); hence the spread. For Shek'zeer, it's the Reaver tank (I believe, anyway) who gets the short stick, for Stone Guard obviously the single boss tank gets shit on (since he has a 90% damage taken debuff). So "average" isn't that useful here.


    Main problem I see that's "unnatural and wrong" (as I said elsewhere too) is that a tank that isn't tanking deals about 10% of a similar-geared DPS spec. But if he is tanking, he can balloon up to 200% of an average DPS'er's DPS (or maybe higher).

    Just IMO, that spread should be a lot closer, perhaps between 40% (when not tanking) up to 80% (when tanking) of a similar-geared DPS spec.

    You are in a fight. You have 1 person yelling at you and slapping you. You have another who is beating the hell out of you. Who do you want to attack first?

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEss View Post
    Vengeance was supposed to be a mechanic that got more people to play tanks when people were complaining about 45 minute queues. If someone rolls a tank 'cause they're under the impression that they have tons of DPS, let 'em. They'll find out how it works soon enough.
    You've already been correct on this. The C2A for dungeons was meant to attract people to tanking, not vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEss View Post
    I have a finite amount of time to play. I'm maxing out my valor each week to get the best tanking gear I can. I have little interest in getting another set of gear unless it's to run with guildies that want to try their hand at tanking. Furthermore, I don't know of any DPS players that say, "Whoops! I forgot I'm doing dailies, better swap my gear! Hell, they even made it so Spirit counted as hit for healers that wanted to switch to casters. Sure, there are other stat priorities between those, but not much. Without reforging, the best healer in my guild can crank out 60k in a heroic by going to Shadow. We've always been the ones to have multiple sets of gear, Stamina, Avoidance, DPS, resist, etc. They stopped with a lot of it (and thank god, my bags couldn't take it any more), but why go back to forcing it on people, because DPS's pride is injured for a few fights in one raid tier?
    When you're capping out Valor Points, you're most likely doing Heroics, in which case... roll on DPS gear. That was hard. Shame you typed up all that just to be told the simplest solution.

    Also note: Vengeance does pretty much crap all vs questing mobs.

    I'd comment on the rest but it's already been covered earlier and your arguments are very tired.

  19. #459
    as a tank, I don't care about my personal dps. I have my recount hidden during fights. Only time I take a look at it is when someone dies or we wipe. As long as the boss dies, all is well. Vengeance is good, it gives relative snap aggro at the start of the fight and after that I can focus what I'm suppose to do. I dont wanna go back to the days when aoeing dps whores meant that you spend more time taunting than tanking.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    You've already been correct on this. The C2A for dungeons was meant to attract people to tanking, not vengeance.


    When you're capping out Valor Points, you're most likely doing Heroics, in which case... roll on DPS gear. That was hard. Shame you typed up all that just to be told the simplest solution.

    Also note: Vengeance does pretty much crap all vs questing mobs.

    I'd comment on the rest but it's already been covered earlier and your arguments are very tired.
    Shame that's not the simplest solution. Leaving it like it is would be the simplest solution here. And my arguments are not nearly as tired as the case against Vengeance. If it's tired, more people would be getting it, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

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