Why are the orcs and draenei still at war?

[Aquamonkey]

Looking for, but it took thousands of years... sorry, not a "trail"

FFS, the Draenei were fleeing the Legion for 25,000 years BEFORE landing on the Orc planet. In that time, the Legion kept showing up to the planets the Draenei had landed on.

---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 05:52 AM ----------

I couldn't find any source for the 200 year quote. But here is one for the Draenei being on the Orc planet for nearly 1000 years.

"I was only a dim speck of void energies when the Prophet Velen and his draenei compatriots lifted my remains and brought them here. After much ceremony, my diminished form was laid to rest within this sarcophagus. I have been regenerating for nearly a thousand years."http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Auchindoun...

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

FFS, the Draenei were fleeing the Legion for 25,000 years BEFORE landing on the Orc planet. In that time, the Legion kept showing up to the planets the Draenei had landed on.

---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 05:52 AM ----------

I couldn't find any source for the 200 year quote. But here is one for the Draenei being on the Orc planet for nearly 1000 years.

"I was only a dim speck of void energies when the Prophet Velen and his draenei compatriots lifted my remains and brought them here. After much ceremony, my diminished form was laid to rest within this sarcophagus. I have been regenerating for nearly a thousand years."http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Auchindoun...

This means nothing, and CERTAINLY doesn't mean they couldn't have found that planet alone.

[RyanEX]

Vol'jin threatens to kill a tyrant.
Garrosh threatens to kill people, because he's a tyrant.

---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 10:06 AM ----------



A lot of the other races, including their leaders have a problem with Garrosh, which will lead to the Siege of Orgrimmar. Also a lot of his orc supporters might think again about whether they should really support him, after what he's done to his own people with the Bell.

The LEADERS have problems with Garrosh. According to the books both Vol'jin and Baine were disturbed by the number of their own people cheering at Garrosh's speeches after dropping the bomb on Theramore.

So long story short. A MINORITY of the HORDE which happens to contain MOST of the horde LEADERS oppose Garrosh's methods. Yet none of them have the BALLS to do what an ANCIENT Tauren attempted when he challenged Garrosh to a Mak'Gora.

[Granyala]

FFS, the Draenei were fleeing the Legion for 25,000 years BEFORE landing on the Orc planet. In that time, the Legion kept showing up to the planets the Draenei had landed on.

I never disputed that. I dispute that it was the use of arcane magic that led the Legion to Draenor. It was not.
The legion cannot track us. But they have vast armies, so they can search planets at random.

Usually all they found were ruins of our habitats, because we can extrapolate how long it'll take till they reach us and move on in time.
Sadly due to K'ures Illness and the silence of the Naaru (Draenei NPC don't say "the Naaru have not forgotten us" for no reason), that wasn't possible on Draenor.
It isn't our fault that the Orcs got currupted. They could have said "no" to the legion, just as we did and we would have done everything we can to help them fight the demons.

But THEY wanted the power. THEY gave into Kil'Jaedens promises, just as Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden gave into Sargeras'.
THEY CHOSE TO FOLLOW THE LEGION.

[Deleted]

Of course, the biggest idiocy in the Dreanei's so called 'eternal journey' was the naming of their newest home in the tongue that was easily understood by their pursuers, and if that wasn't enough, explicitly naming said refuge after themselves. Which, as the 'novel' (though calling it such is a disgrace to literature) RoH(?), points out, is what initially attracted said pursuers to track them down to this new area. Ergo, everything is, in fact, their fault. The Orcs truly are the victims here.

To be fair, this exhibition of monumental idiocy and contrivance is in fact quite common in Blizzard storylines and and in Warcraft in general. So, we'll not hold it against them, in spite of the fact that they threw 5 years of continuity down a toilet. Perhaps we should call it, Metzen's gambit.

Of course, it's equally odd how the same text seems to imply that the Orcs didn't even have a name for their planet before the Dreanei's deplorable driving skills led them to their world. Despite saying prior that they called it 'world', in their tongue. Which is basically what these types of names boil down to anyway, and therefore contradictory. So, again, stupid.

[MrWolly]

Because the Draenei are in the Alliance, and the Orcs are in the Horde.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Of course, the biggest idiocy in the Dreanei's so called 'eternal journey' was the naming of their newest home in the tongue that was easily understood by their pursuers, and if that wasn't enough, explicitly naming said refuge after themselves. Which, as the 'novel' (though calling it such is a disgrace to literature) RoH(?), points out, is what initially attracted said pursuers to track them down to this new area. Ergo, everything is, in fact, their fault. The Orcs truly are the victims here.

To be fair, this exhibition of monumental idiocy and contrivance is in fact quite common in Blizzard storylines and and in Warcraft in general. Perhaps we should call it, Metzen's gambit.

No It doesn't matter how the Legion found them, whether they left notes or not. It doesn't matter if the Legion lucked out and found them. The Orcs CHOSE to accept the deal. Whether you want to BS us and say "it was the leaders!" They choose leaders. They follow leaders. Its their choice.

[Deleted]

No It doesn't matter how the Legion found them, whether they left notes or not. It doesn't matter if the Legion lucked out and found them. The Orcs CHOSE to accept the deal. Whether you want to BS us and say "it was the leaders!" They choose leaders. They follow leaders. Its their choice.

True. But I was pointing out chiefly the contrivance and poor writing behind them being found. Which, if you got over this amusing virtual jingoism, you might have been able to see.

Ugh, I've spent too much time at Warseer and am now expecting wit and intellect. I've forgotten how inferior these forums are.

[Aquamonkey]

Talgath's report to Kil'Jaeden:

There is a small world, primitive and insignificant. And I have sensed their peculiar brand of magic Minting the area. It is possible that they may have come and gone. Such, alas, has happened before.

On tracking the Draenei:

Many times before, Kil’jaeden's forces had arrived on some world or other, lured by the sweet essence of eredar magic, only to find that somehow Velen and his wretched followers had gotten wind of the approach and escaped.

The Legion can sense Draenei magic and it brought them to the Orc planet.

So often before, Kil’jaeden's forces had descended upon a world where Velen was thought to be. only to have him escape. Kil’jaeden had nursed his insulted pride by destroying such worlds, but the slaughter of primitive races—though pleasant—did not slake his demonic thirst for complete and total revenge.

Direct evidence that the Draenei are responsible for the destruction of other worlds by leading the Legion to them, then abandoning the helpless inhabitants.

[Deleted]

Talgath's report to Kil'Jaeden: "There is a small world, primitive and insignificant. And I have sensed their peculiar brand of magic Minting the area. It is possible that they may have come and gone. Such, alas, has happened before."

"Many times before, Kil’jaeden's forces had arrived on some world or other, lured by the sweet essence of eredar magic, only to find that somehow Velen and his wretched followers had gotten wind of the approach and escaped." -Rise of the Horde
The Legion can sense Draenei magic and it brought them to the Orc planet.


Direct evidence that the Draenei are responsible for the destruction of other worlds by leading the Legion to them, then abandoning the helpless inhabitants.

You sure there was nothing saying he was also intrigued by the name that was from his language?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

True. But I was pointing out chiefly the contrivance and poor writing behind them being found. Which, if you got over this amusing virtual jingoism, you might have been able to see.

Ugh, I've spent too much time at Warseer and am now expecting wit and intellect. I've forgotten how inferior these forums are.

Yes, in a thread directly dealing with a certain topic, you bitching about "bad writing" is misplaced. Sorry, plenty of wit and intellect here in this thread, if you want, I can go back and replace small words with big ones. (You know, they mean the same thing anyway)

Talgath's report to Kil'Jaeden:
On tracking the Draenei:

The Legion can sense Draenei magic and it brought them to the Orc planet.


Direct evidence that the Draenei are responsible for the destruction of other worlds by leading the Legion to them, then abandoning the helpless inhabitants.

This does not say anything about a magic pixie dust trail they followed. They could have easily found 10 times as many planets without any traces of magic as planets with magic traces. This is in no way the same as following a trail of foot prints.

This still doesn't redeem Orcs, or make them victims in any way.

[Deleted]

Yes, in a thread directly dealing with a certain topic, you bitching about "bad writing" is misplaced. Sorry, plenty of wit and intellect here in this thread, if you want, I can go back and replace small words with big ones. (You know, they mean the same thing anyway).

This would be convincing if it wasn't for the fact that you treated my so-called 'bitching' as an observation (read: serious input) regarding the rightness of either side of this sub-topic of yours regarding who is the victim in this part of the Warcraft continuity (the narrative does make the point of saying that the answer to this question is 'both of them', but I'll not press the point, having parted with this series long ago). I was just making a humorous observation based off what is, undeniably, a contrivance.

That being said, this quoted statement seems like a clumsy attempt to pick yourself off the ground after having misfired wildly. Especially considering that I more or less agreed with you in the very post you're raging against. Especially considering how you're latching onto 'big words'.

[Deathgoose]

Bravo, you invoked Godwin's Law as TS.

Since you're comparing fiction with non-fiction, allow me to hop in.

Technically, he didn't.

From the very site you linked:

Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Nazis. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect committing the fallacist's fallacy. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

The OP brought up how one group/country committed genocide less than a century before it became rather close allies with pretty much everyone with whom it was waging war, and compared that to the orc/draenei history/present whose sole similarity really is the genocide, as none of the socio-political factors of then Nazi Germany even remotely resemble anything about the Orcs/Draenei.

[Aquamonkey]

This does not say anything about a magic pixie dust trail they followed. They could have easily found 10 times as many planets without any traces of magic as planets with magic traces. This is in no way the same as following a trail of foot prints.

The Legion was lured to these planets by Draenei magic. The same way they are lured to planets that use Arcane magic.

This still doesn't redeem Orcs, or make them victims in any way.

One Orc doomed the entire race. How are they not victims?

[Granyala]

Of course, the biggest idiocy in the Dreanei's so called 'eternal journey' was the naming of their newest home in the tongue that was easily understood by their pursuers, and if that wasn't enough, explicitly naming said refuge after themselves. Which, as the 'novel' (though calling it such is a disgrace to literature) RoH(?), points out, is what initially attracted said pursuers to track them down to this new area. Ergo, everything is, in fact, their fault.

Wasn't it called Draenor back in Warcraft III, before the WoW-Draenei-Retcon was even conceived? The initial Draenei, aka lost ones, were presented as mere inhabitants of Draenor that just fought with the fel-orcs. No further explanation was given, back then. So the Name Draenor was just kept for consistency reasons. Consistency... olol ^^.

I always wondered why we never got a name from the Orcs, or why the Draenei even gave the planet this name. If inhabitants are already there, why wouldn't you just well... call the planet by the name it's already been given?

BTW: How is it that the Legion learned the Name of the planet, before even landing there? That would imply that the Orcs or some other indigenous race would:
a) Communicate directly with the legion
b) possess space travel of some kind and run into a legion agent, telling him "Dude, there's place called Draenor".

The Legion can sense Draenei magic and it brought them to the Orc planet.

No they can't. They can sense it ONCE THEY ARE ON THE PLANET. But not from a distance and know "They are on planet X".
The legion can only sense MASSIVE arcane energies, like the kind which the Highborne used or like we used on Argus.

[Aquamonkey]

No they can't. They can sense it ONCE THEY ARE ON THE PLANET. But not from a distance and know "They are on planet X".
The legion can only sense MASSIVE arcane energies, like the kind which the Highborne used or like we used on Argus.

So then how did Talgath sense Draenei magic from the Orc planet without actually going there? When he reports his finding to Kil'Jaeden he has no idea that the Draenei are currently on the planet. Kil'Jaeden orders Talgath there afterwards to find out.

There is a small world, primitive and insignificant. And I have sensed their peculiar brand of magic Minting the area. It is possible that they may have come and gone. Such, alas, has happened before.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

This would be convincing if it wasn't for the fact that you treated my so-called 'bitching' as an observation regarding the rightness of either side of this sub-topic of yours regarding who is the victim in this part of the Warcraft continuity (the narrative does make the point of saying that the answer to this question is 'both of them', but I'll not press the point, having parted with this series long ago). I was just making a humorous observation based off what is, undeniably, a contrivance.

That being said, this quoted statement seems like a clumsy attempt to pick yourself off the ground after having misfired wildly. Especially considering that I more or less agreed with you in the very post you're raging against. Especially considering how you're latching onto 'big words'.

Well, most of this post is just pretty much made up BS. Thats great though. if you think anything you've said is "humorous" or anything past "snarky" .... Sorry. No raging here. I guess if you want to pretend like you are looking down on me, go ahead. I guess you can write down a "cool point" tally in your notebook.

Sorry, stating you think its bad writing isn't agreeing with me. Your last sentence isn't even a sentence. Whats even worse is how you look down on these forums, but all you have brought to it today is condescension, bitching, and AGAIN, a few big words. That isn't being witty or intelligent. Sounds like you need to work on that vocab instead of use thesauruses to pat yourself on the back.

---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 10:00 AM ----------

The Legion was lured to these planets by Draenei magic. The same way they are lured to planets that use Arcane magic.


One Orc doomed the entire race. How are they not victims?

They found them, that is not the same as tracking a trail, or footprints.

No, they were willing. They willingly chose to drink and have a good time. Its just buyers remorse. You can call hem STUPID, but not VICTIMS.

[Deleted]

Wasn't it called Draenor back in Warcraft III, before the WoW-Draenei-Retcon was even conceived? The initial Draenei, aka lost ones, were presented as mere inhabitants of Draenor that just fought with the fel-orcs. No further explanation was given, back then. So the Name Draenor was just kept for consistency reasons. Consistency... olol ^^.

Well, like I said, it's odd the Orcs didn't have their own name for it.

I always wondered why we never got a name from the Orcs, or why the Draenei even gave the planet this name. If inhabitants are already there, why wouldn't you just well... call the planet by the name it's already been given?

It's Blizzard, what did you expect? Seriously, the Orcs have names for cliffs, are they honestly selling the idea that they had no name for the world?

BTW: How is it that the Legion learned the Name of the planet, before even landing there? That would imply that the Orcs or some other indigenous race would:
a) Communicate directly with the legion
b) possess space travel of some kind and run into a legion agent, telling him "Dude, there's place called Draenor".

I don't think it was ever satisfactorily explained. All that was said is that one Kil'jaeden's men went around space one day and somehow got the name. Like I said, stupid.

[Aquamonkey]

No, they were willing. They willingly chose to drink and have a good time. Its just buyers remorse. You can call hem STUPID, but not VICTIMS.

Nope. Only the 12 clan chieftains drank the blood after being tricked by Gul'dan. Nobody else drank the blood. All the other Orcs infected with the corruption had no say in it.

[Azgraal]

Force of habit, i guess..