Why are the orcs and draenei still at war?

[Haven]

So, orc paladins are not beyond the realms of possibility. Infact the russian made mmo game Allods has orc paladins in it, which they call Reavers.

In russian version of it, the Imperial human paladins were called Commissars. The awesomeness.

[Deleted]

When even the Forsaken can use the Holy Light, not even Forsaken Paladins are beyond the realms of possibility. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[Aquamonkey]

Orcs werent enslaved, merely corrupted. Enslaved by the Legion is what happened to the Sayaadi and the Mo'arg.

They were most definitely enslaved.

"Behold my lieutenant, Mannoroth. Well has he served me and well shall he continue to serve. On other worlds, they call him the Destructor. But here, he is the savior. Gul'dan," purred Kil’jaeden, and suddenly Gul'dan felt weak and sick again. "You know what I am offering your people."
Gul'dan swallowed hard. He did not dare glance at Ner'zhul, whose gaze he felt boring into his back.
Yes, he knew well what Kil’jaeden was offering. Power beyond imagining . . . and slavery for eternity. Kil’jaeden had offered the former to Ner'zhul in exchange for the latter, and Ner'zhul, the coward, had balked. He had not wanted to doom his people. Gul'dan was untroubled by such scruples.

[rowaasr13]

you see it as mercy, do the Orcs?

I'm ok with orcs seeing it as anything they want. I'm perfectly ok with smash / destroy / pillage / mercy is weakness cultures. What bothers me is hypocrite players that somehow insist that orcs are not like that, e.g. they're in war with Draenei for some noble reason.

So, my stance on original question why Orcs are still opposed to Draenei is: because Orcs are bloodthirsty warmongers. If you agree, then we really just have same opinion.

[Granyala]

When the legion REALLY convert a race, there is no salvation.

Not true. Even high Eredar lords can be redeemed, if they so desire. I suggest you do the following quest line:

Socrethar's Shadow

[RyanEX]

because simply put Garrosh is responsible only for Garrosh's action while Varian is responsible for Varian's action. Jaina, well she is responsible for Jaina's actions.


just because Garrosh was a douchenozzle first doesn't mean that he is responsible for Varian and Jain's horrible reactions. no they are responsible 100% for what they did. Garrosh is responsible for needlessly antagonizing them, they get the bill for rising to his baiting. both sides are equally culpable.

Varian may be guilty to rising to Garrosh's baiting...

But there is a distinct difference between baiting and what Garrosh did to Theramore. Which is why as fan I was so disappointed in how the story ended, and why I find nothing wrong with Jaina's current anger.

Say what you want about her letting Theramore be used as a military base, you can NOT disagree that she is the one person that worked harder than anyone (even Thrall) for inter faction peace. Hell, she was so well known in the Horde, that Baine went to her for help as opposed to any of the Horde chieftains...even Vol'Jin.

[Trassk]

I'm ok with orcs seeing it as anything they want. I'm perfectly ok with smash / destroy / pillage / mercy is weakness cultures. What bothers me is hypocrite players that somehow insist that orcs are not like that, e.g. they're in war with Draenei for some noble reason.

So, my stance on original question why Orcs are still opposed to Draenei is: because Orcs are bloodthirsty warmongers. If you agree, then we really just have same opinion.

The orcs were not in war with the draenei over noble reasons before, although they thought they were, they thought the draenei were a threat because kil'jaeden tricked ner'zhul and the rest followed his misguided wisdom.

Currently they have a solid reason to be at war with them, for there survival, since the alliance is trying to step up and wipe the horde out.

[Deleted]

Currently they have a solid reason to be at war with them, for there survival, since the alliance is trying to step up and wipe the horde out.

Really? Wipe them out? Did I sleep through a couple expansions? Not even Varian wants to wipe out the Horde. The consensus seems to be that there can't be peace with Garrosh as Warchief. The only ones that currently attempt to wipe someone out is the Horde.

[Deleted]

Dont forget that some Draeneis also were corrupted by the demons...
In Shattrath though we see them leaving alongside each other and it seems to me inside there they are more interested in what the BE do (Scryers) than the orcs.
Also in game we can see from both sides that before the demons corruption they lived in piece or at least without any heavy hostilitys.
But as stated above Draeinei is a long living race and its not easy to forget even more to forgive the acts of the Orcs, although imo the remaining untainted Orcs doesnt seem to hate or be at war with the Draeneis more likely beeing ashamed of their green skinned brothers acts.

[mistuhbull]

Who is the Horde trying to wipe out? Because I really missed that part (Seeing as it's not in anything that can even be closely considered as lore).

I'm going to assume this is going to be pointed to (though it specifically is pointed at the Twilight's Hammer but that's irrelevant to many)

Garrosh Hellscream yells: Fellow warriors of the Horde. Hear me now!
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Ahead hides our foe. Worshippers of chaos who seek to remake the world.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: A new world is coming, friends. But it is not the world of their design.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Together, we will crush the Twilight's Hammer, raze their stronghold,
Garrosh Hellscream yells: salt the earth, and burn the bodies. All will tremble at our might.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Then we will stand astride this world as its masters -
Garrosh Hellscream yells: united in our conviction, unrivaled in strength, beholden to no one.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Today, WE will remake the world. Our world. FOR THE HORDE!

Then again, Mr. Wrynn was going around saying thing like

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you [thrall] and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!

[rowaasr13]

Currently they have a solid reason to be at war with them, for there survival, since the alliance is trying to step up and wipe the horde out.

What bothers me is hypocrite players that somehow insist that orcs are not like that, e.g. they're in war with Draenei for some noble reason.

[RyanEX]

I'm going to assume this is going to be pointed to (though it specifically is pointed at the Twilight's Hammer but that's irrelevant to many)

Garrosh Hellscream yells: Fellow warriors of the Horde. Hear me now!
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Ahead hides our foe. Worshippers of chaos who seek to remake the world.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: A new world is coming, friends. But it is not the world of their design.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Together, we will crush the Twilight's Hammer, raze their stronghold,
Garrosh Hellscream yells: salt the earth, and burn the bodies. All will tremble at our might.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Then we will stand astride this world as its masters -
Garrosh Hellscream yells: united in our conviction, unrivaled in strength, beholden to no one.
Garrosh Hellscream yells: Today, WE will remake the world. Our world. FOR THE HORDE!

Then again, Mr. Wrynn was going around saying thing like

King Varian Wrynn says: I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you [thrall] and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
King Varian Wrynn says: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
King Varian Wrynn says: ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!

I never expected such blatant misinformation from you Mistuh.

You're using the speech Garrosh gives as they're heading towards the Twilight Highlands to fight the Twlight's HAMMER, while at the same time omitting the part when he spots the Alliance fleet as a way to excuse his words and actions in the novels and current game.

At the same time ignoring the fact that that was the split personality WotLK Varian while ignoring the MoP Varian.

[mistuhbull]

Aah, I see.. But I will await Nindoriels answer
It's probably some crap Garrosh said, because if Garrosh yells something stupid, it's "the Horde wiping out stuff".

But, of course, Varian yelling something stupid is just him being provoked by the Horde and losing his temper

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 09:23 AM ----------

I never expected such blatant misinformation from you Mistuh.

You're using the speech Garrosh gives as they're heading towards the Twilight Highlands to fight the Twlight's HAMMER, while at the same time omitting the part when he spots the Alliance fleet as a way to excuse his words and actions in the novels and current game.

At the same time ignoring the fact that that was the split personality WotLK Varian while ignoring the MoP Varian.

Wow, point made already.

Him spotting the Alliance fleet and moving to attack it is irrelevant. He isn't calling to wipe out the Alliance, he's calling to wipe out the Twilight's Hammer

[Anjerith]

Really don't need much of a reason beyond the fact that they are Commies do we ?

[RyanEX]

But, of course, Varian yelling something stupid is just him being provoked by the Horde and losing his temper

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 09:23 AM ----------



Wow, point made already.

Him spotting the Alliance fleet and moving to attack it is irrelevant. He isn't calling to wipe out the Alliance, he's calling to wipe out the Twilight's Hammer

Don;t lump me in with the mouthbreathers.

My point is that your using the Twilight Highlands intro speech in an attempt to claim that Garrosh is not calling for the extermination of Alliance races, while using Varian's words in Wrath while he's in grief over a presumed Forsaken betrayal which lead to the death of numerous Alliance soldiers AND his closest friend.

At the start of ToW he only aims to wipe out any Alliance on Kalimdor, main focus being the Nelves, claiming that they have no claim to Kalimdor since they're unwilling to use the resources at their disposal. By the END of the novel he decides that he was thinking too small and that the Alliance has no claim to Azeroth as a whole.

[Granyala]

I don't think Garrosh wants to wipe out anyone just yet. However, if he thinks some Alliance is in his way to what he wants, he just kills them.

[mistuhbull]

Don;t lump me in with the mouthbreathers.

My point is that your using the Twilight Highlands intro speech in an attempt to claim that Garrosh is not calling for the extermination of Alliance races, while using Varian's words in Wrath while he's in grief over a presumed Forsaken betrayal which lead to the death of numerous Alliance soldiers AND his closest friend.

At the start of ToW he only aims to wipe out any Alliance on Kalimdor, main focus being the Nelves, claiming that they have no claim to Kalimdor since they're unwilling to use the resources at their disposal. By the END of the novel he decides that he was thinking too small and that the Alliance has no claim to Azeroth as a whole.

Actually, I was throwing out the Twi-Hi intro as what is going to be thrown out by the Anti-Garrosh Brigade, even though it is not what they assert it is.

And you've proved my point. When Garrosh says something stupid, it's because he's a bloodthirsty mongrel but when Varian says something stupid, it's because he is compromised in some way and doesn't really mean it.

[Deleted]

Actually, I was throwing out the Twi-Hi intro as what is going to be thrown out by the Anti-Garrosh Brigade, even though it is not what they assert it is.

And you've proved my point. When Garrosh says something stupid, it's because he's a bloodthirsty mongrel but when Varian says something stupid, it's because he is compromised in some way and doesn't really mean it.

Let's be perfectly honest here, there are people who roleplay extremist factions of the alliance in general conversation, the MMO-Champion community is heavily screwed in favour of Alliance.


Either way, bottom line is.


Varian is a flip flop mouthpiece with hilariously bad writing and character motivation.

Garrosh is just a Warlord, simple and because of it, better written.

[RyanEX]

Actually, I was throwing out the Twi-Hi intro as what is going to be thrown out by the Anti-Garrosh Brigade, even though it is not what they assert it is.

And you've proved my point. When Garrosh says something stupid, it's because he's a bloodthirsty mongrel but when Varian says something stupid, it's because he is compromised in some way and doesn't really mean it.

Again incorrect. They were both asses in Wrath. I will be the first to admit to this, I may not like the Horde but I don't wear blinders. In Wrath Varian was the emo kid that you could never tell how he'd react to any given situation.

However...

His lines in UC are understandable due to fact that he was reacting to an event that had only just happened. Can you honestly say that if a gang had killed your best friend and you were in a position to do something about it that you would react in any less of an emotional manner?

However we've never really been given a reason for Garrosh's shift from the emotional wreck in TBC to his current incarnation. He jumps from wanting what's best for his people, to wanting personal approval, to emulating daddy. This makes him hard to feel for.

[Deleted]

However we've never really been given a reason for Garrosh's shift from the emotional wreck in TBC to his current incarnation. He jumps from wanting what's best for his people, to wanting personal approval, to emulating daddy. This makes him hard to feel for.

Actually have you ever done the finishing Nagrand Quest?

It explains how he jumps from mopey to Waaaaaagh.

He sees and image of his father fighting, and he is inspired, he wants to be the hero like his father, he wants to save the Orcs people and give them a future.

Despite his actions.. he is doing exactly that. In a Way, I admire Garrosh, he's done things Thrall would not.. Namely, actually give his people more than a dusty hellhole for a home.