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  1. #681
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Again incorrect. They were both asses in Wrath. I will be the first to admit to this, I may not like the Horde but I don't wear blinders. In Wrath Varian was the emo kid that you could never tell how he'd react to any given situation.

    However...

    His lines in UC are understandable due to fact that he was reacting to an event that had only just happened. Can you honestly say that if a gang had killed your best friend and you were in a position to do something about it that you would react in any less of an emotional manner?

    However we've never really been given a reason for Garrosh's shift from the emotional wreck in TBC to his current incarnation. He jumps from wanting what's best for his people, to wanting personal approval, to emulating daddy. This makes him hard to feel for.
    You're doing it though. You're attempting to excuse Varian's words and actions, trying to make it so they aren't what he actually thinks because of this reason or that reason. while accepting Garrosh on the shallow level of his words.

    As for Garrosh, the quick and dirty character building

    1) Raised his whole life being told how awful his father is and how his father damned his people
    2) Thrall finds him, shows him that Grom was a pretty cool guy
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    4) Sees that Thrall is doing nothing to fight back for his people. This is not the Orc way, the Orc way is to defend your home and provide for your people
    5) Garrosh challenges Thrall and leads the campaign in Northrend
    6) Garrosh cuts his teeth in Northrend, mainly against an unmistakably evil force.
    7) Garrosh is made Warchief, a position he didn't think he was apt for, and then has all of his advisors either get themselves killed or abandon him.

    There is a driving motivation behind Garrosh; The Alliance have forced the Horde to live in squalor. The Alliance hates the Horde and views them as monsters. Therefore, the proper Orcish way to deal with it is to undeniably crush the Alliance so they cannot oppress the Horde
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Actually have you ever done the finishing Nagrand Quest?

    It explains how he jumps from mopey to Waaaaaagh.

    He sees and image of his father fighting, and he is inspired, he wants to be the hero like his father, he wants to save the Orcs people and give them a future.

    Despite his actions.. he is doing exactly that. In a Way, I admire Garrosh, he's done things Thrall would not.. Namely, actually give his people more than a dusty hellhole for a home.

    Yes I have. I mean the level of aggressivness he displays, though I suppose it has to do with the fact that Horde players tell the Mag'Har that the Horde RULES Azeroth, and when he travels to Orgrimmar he realises that the truth is less that the fact.

    Either way, the way he is written is one of the main points that people have in pointing out that the Legion didn't really change the orcs as much as people like to make out. Garrosh is an orc untouched by demon blood and raised in the old way. Yet the way he acts is more akin to the old Horde, which raises the question to just really what did the demons change in the orcs.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  3. #683
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Yes I have. I mean the level of aggressivness he displays, though I suppose it has to do with the fact that Horde players tell the Mag'Har that the Horde RULES Azeroth, and when he travels to Orgrimmar he realises that the truth is less that the fact.

    Either way, the way he is written is one of the main points that people have in pointing out that the Legion didn't really change the orcs as much as people like to make out. Garrosh is an orc untouched by demon blood and raised in the old way. Yet the way he acts is more akin to the old Horde, which raises the question to just really what did the demons change in the orcs.
    Demon blood didn't change much. It enhanced what was already there. The Bloodlust is a natural orc phenomenon, which was enhanced by the demon blood
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  4. #684
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    You're doing it though. You're attempting to excuse Varian's words and actions, trying to make it so they aren't what he actually thinks because of this reason or that reason. while accepting Garrosh on the shallow level of his words.

    As for Garrosh, the quick and dirty character building

    1) Raised his whole life being told how awful his father is and how his father damned his people
    2) Thrall finds him, shows him that Grom was a pretty cool guy
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    4) Sees that Thrall is doing nothing to fight back for his people. This is not the Orc way, the Orc way is to defend your home and provide for your people
    5) Garrosh challenges Thrall and leads the campaign in Northrend
    6) Garrosh cuts his teeth in Northrend, mainly against an unmistakably evil force.
    7) Garrosh is made Warchief, a position he didn't think he was apt for, and then has all of his advisors either get themselves killed or abandon him.

    There is a driving motivation behind Garrosh; The Alliance have forced the Horde to live in squalor. The Alliance hates the Horde and views them as monsters. Therefore, the proper Orcish way to deal with it is to undeniably crush the Alliance so they cannot oppress the Horde
    Could not have said it better myself.

    I think the ironic thing is Garrosh has done what he set out to do, he had a Horde, living in stick huts and he forged them into a powerful nation, they have new homes, new technology, a new future.

    Varian basically has zero point, his Kingdom was doing fine without him, the Alliance was doing fine without him. He's basically a useless figurehead who due to Alliance desperately wanting a center figure, has been forced in the middle of the stage and now flip flops his personality to fit what role he's supposed to pander to.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    You're doing it though. You're attempting to excuse Varian's words and actions, trying to make it so they aren't what he actually thinks because of this reason or that reason. while accepting Garrosh on the shallow level of his words.

    As for Garrosh, the quick and dirty character building

    1) Raised his whole life being told how awful his father is and how his father damned his people
    2) Thrall finds him, shows him that Grom was a pretty cool guy
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    4) Sees that Thrall is doing nothing to fight back for his people. This is not the Orc way, the Orc way is to defend your home and provide for your people
    5) Garrosh challenges Thrall and leads the campaign in Northrend
    6) Garrosh cuts his teeth in Northrend, mainly against an unmistakably evil force.
    7) Garrosh is made Warchief, a position he didn't think he was apt for, and then has all of his advisors either get themselves killed or abandon him.

    There is a driving motivation behind Garrosh; The Alliance have forced the Horde to live in squalor. The Alliance hates the Horde and views them as monsters. Therefore, the proper Orcish way to deal with it is to undeniably crush the Alliance so they cannot oppress the Horde

    I'm excusing one incident because it's relevant, if on the flipside garrosh and Saurfang were bros and the Wrathgate incident was perpetrated by a rogue Alliance faction, I'd be backing Garrosh for anything he said due to the extreme emotional duress.

    As for the rest of it, rising the Garrosh's baiting in Dalaran, responding to and escalating the tension in the Argent Trials, etc. Varian was not demonstrating any reason as to why he should be king. If anything he was doing the opposite.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  6. #686
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Either way, the way he is written is one of the main points that people have in pointing out that the Legion didn't really change the orcs as much as people like to make out. Garrosh is an orc untouched by demon blood and raised in the old way. Yet the way he acts is more akin to the old Horde, which raises the question to just really what did the demons change in the orcs.
    He is also a son trying to fill the shoes of his father, to bring the Orcs into a golden age where they are not hungry, tired, scared or cold. He wishes a world where the Horde is strong so it can protect his people.

    And he is Doing it the Orc way, through muscle, cunning and Bravado.

    Orcs never pulled any punches, they were always aggresive. However, what makes Garrosh different is he channels these aggresive actions, this Gung Ho attitude into building an empire.


    Orcs never apologise, they simply make things right.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Could not have said it better myself.

    I think the ironic thing is Garrosh has done what he set out to do, he had a Horde, living in stick huts and he forged them into a powerful nation, they have new homes, new technology, a new future.

    Varian basically has zero point, his Kingdom was doing fine without him, the Alliance was doing fine without him. He's basically a useless figurehead who due to Alliance desperately wanting a center figure, has been forced in the middle of the stage and now flip flops his personality to fit what role he's supposed to pander to.

    I think this is the guy you should talk to about blinders, Mistuh.

    All Garrosh had done is slowly destroyed the Horde from the inside out because as far as he is concerned Orcs > All. As for the Varian having done nothing?

    Read all the posts about blizzard neutering the Alliance to be used as the Horde's foil. About how many questlines were scrapped in order to complete OTHER projects. About relegating key lore figures to cheerleaders to advance the Horde storyline.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 06:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    He is also a son trying to fill the shoes of his father, to bring the Orcs into a golden age where they are not hungry, tired, scared or cold. He wishes a world where the Horde is strong so it can protect his people.

    And he is Doing it the Orc way, through muscle, cunning and Bravado.

    Orcs never pulled any punches, they were always aggresive. However, what makes Garrosh different is he channels these aggresive actions, this Gung Ho attitude into building an empire.


    Orcs never apologise, they simply make things right.

    Make things right...

    Okay...lost cause.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  8. #688
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post

    Make things right...

    Okay...lost cause.
    Oh you seem to confuse me with some errant twit who takes sides, I am merely expressing things from Garrosh's own point of view.

    Yes, through his brash actions, his utter disregard of other races and his supreme pigheadedness, he is in fact breaking the very Horde he wished to forge into a powerful world force.

    As for "Making the Alliance Weaker" You really must not have played WoW in Vanilla.. where the Horde was basically nothing but a few stick huts barely managing to survive, while the Alliance was a huge global power whos only problems were internal politics.

    Cataclysm merely leveled the playing field, unless you are far to blind to see that for yourself.

  9. #689
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Cataclysm merely leveled the playing field, unless you are far to blind to see that for yourself.
    They had to kick the alliance a bit in the later X-Pacs, because like you said: The Horde had nothing they could take away w/o exterminating them.

  10. #690
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    They had to kick the alliance a bit in the later X-Pacs, because like you said: The Horde had nothing they could take away w/o exterminating them.
    Exactly. People wanted WARcraft, so they were given it, Apparently people only wanted some Warcraft if it was an orginised United front of Kingdoms against ragged and beaten barbarians.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Exactly. People wanted WARcraft, so they were given it, Apparently people only wanted some Warcraft if it was an orginised United front of Kingdoms against ragged and beaten barbarians.

    Don't know bout the people you're talking about, but I wanted a bit of consistency in the way the war was written. If I'm fighting a losing battle don't have the questgivers telling me that I'm making a difference and at the end of the chain we get a lolulose plot armor ending where everything you did amounts to nothing.

    And you're forgetting that the whole stick huts deal was all the old Horde needed to keep the original Alliance on the backfoot. The Alliance is SUPPOSED to be more technologically advanced. It balances out against the fact that the Horde are physically much stronger.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  12. #692
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Don't know bout the people you're talking about, but I wanted a bit of consistency in the way the war was written. If I'm fighting a losing battle don't have the questgivers telling me that I'm making a difference and at the end of the chain we get a lolulose plot armor ending where everything you did amounts to nothing.

    And you're forgetting that the whole stick huts deal was all the old Horde needed to keep the original Alliance on the backfoot. The Alliance is SUPPOSED to be more technologically advanced. It balances out against the fact that the Horde are physically much stronger.
    Only zones I can think of like that are Gilneas, WPL (though it's tied until the very end) and Stonetalon (where you're playing catchup the whole time).

    Ashenvale they push the Horde back
    Barrens, ok they kinda lose Sbarrens
    Desolace, well the Alli base does get torched but you don't see that as Alliance

    Hell, Alliance dominates Swamp of Sorrows so that's something

    The fact of it all is, is that Horde had so little territory pre-Cata that the only way to make it fair was for the Alliance to lose. And honestly, most of their loses is over in EK where they just become Horde only zones
    Last edited by mistuhbull; 2013-01-17 at 11:33 PM.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  13. #693
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    If I'm fighting a losing battle don't have the questgivers telling me that I'm making a difference and at the end of the chain we get a lolulose plot armor ending where everything you did amounts to nothing.
    Welcome to reality. Sometimes you lose despite trying.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    That's basically entire problem with the Orcs, as I've said many times already. They poor due to their own dumb, incapable of anything but fighting themselves. But in their minds it is ALWAYS due to "someone else".

  15. #695
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Who is the Horde trying to wipe out? Because I really missed that part (Seeing as it's not in anything that can even be closely considered as lore).
    Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.
    No ,his original plan was to take Kalimdor for the horde, only after he got beaten at the shores of Durotar did he decide to ultimately conquer the world.

  17. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No ,his original plan was to take Kalimdor for the horde, only after he got beaten at the shores of Durotar did he decide to ultimately conquer the world.
    I'm sure he planned to take the Eastern Kingdoms as well. I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.

  18. #698
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
    And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?
    Varian is clearly emotionally compromised in some way and he doesn't actually mean it
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I'm sure he planned to take the Eastern Kingdoms as well. I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.
    Look at page 313 in Tides of war, Garrosh original intend was to take Kalimdor, but after his defeat he intends to destroy the Alliance.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
    And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

    I'm not saying that "The Horde is good and the Alliance is evil".
    Both are good compared to the Burning Legion and the big evils we fight.
    But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

    Read ToW.

    Read about disappointed Baine and Vol'Jin are at how many of their own people along with the orcs cheer for Garrosh after Theramore.

    Aside from the other leaders and the few that follow them, the bulk of the Horde follow Garrosh and agree with his intentions. It's only after upcoming events do the general Horde populace begin to want to distance themselves from Garrosh. And it's not because they think what he did was wrong...oh no...it's because they think that his methods with destroy them as well.

    And when the Alliance and Varian resort to dropping tactical nukes and using germ warfare against the Horde then we can talk about comparing just how evil both factions are.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

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