Bards as New Class: Yay or Nay?

[huth]

I came here expecting at least one FFIV reference and got none.

That would have been spoony.

[Deleted]

Then I just have to disagree with you. For me, there must be a basal level of plausibility in order to even start considering more variables (such as gameplay)

I'm baffled as to how you can disagree, I'm not saying "if it fits mechanically it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit the lore", it needs to fit both. Likewise if something fits the lore but there's no way to implement it mechanically, it doesn't matter if there's lore justification - if it doesn't work it doesn't work.

If there is a mathematical equation where both parts need to equal 2.

One part is a complex series of brackets and algebra.
The other part is "1+2 = ?"

Then why bother solving the first part when the second is obviously not 2 and both halves need to?

[TheDangerZone]

Classes pop up all the time. Demon hunters - to name another. Then ppl ask for hero classes.

Bard as a support class..hum..and you level as a wet towel then? Doesn't everyone want to be a hero? the one who takes it in the face. The one who heals, the one who damages the boss?

I like what areas they explored with the monk. If we ever get another class or race, I trust Blizzard to make it spectacular.

You bring an excellent point. Our characters are heroes, they fight the baddest mofos, they invade and conquer, they are mercenaries, they get shit done, They are part of political upheaval and coups, infiltrations and high profile missions. Bards just don't seem cut for that life.

Above all, I just don't think that bards belong to the setting no matter how hard I try to make it work in my head.

[huth]

Actually I don't believe WoW is lighthearted. I mean, is not DARK and GRITTY, but it definitely has a more "realistic" approach to conflict and internal consistency and explaining of the universe forces.

I don't think "lighthearted" is the right word for what you mean.

[TheDangerZone]

I'm baffled as to how you can disagree, I'm not saying "if it fits mechanically it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit the lore", it needs to fit both. Likewise if something fits the lore but there's no way to implement it mechanically, it doesn't matter if there's lore justification - if it doesn't work it doesn't work.

If there is a mathematical equation where both parts need to equal 2.

One part is a complex series of brackets and algebra.
The other part is "1+2 = ?"

Then why bother solving the first part when the second is obviously not 2 and both halves need to?

Well, I do hold lore in a much higher regard than gameplay, not equal at all. The story is what matters the most, the gameplay is just the medium. Why bother to discuss gameplay when there's not a strong lore reason behind? That's what I meant. Gameplay is subservient to lore in all accounts and gameplay can only goes as far as changes in lore have internal consistency and plausibility.

And I mean, what role or gameplay Bards would have is not the issue, what I'm asking is if they would fit the lore, and how they would do it. That's a separate issue.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 10:04 AM ----------

Okay, TVtropes could help me. What I feel about bard magic is it would come off as wrong context magic.

[Immitis]

There's a lore approach, thanks! But, in a world like wow, these things just sound... kinda lighthearted, like cool but impractical. And above all, too different from the tone wow has.

enhancing music and sound just sound really, unpractical, when there are easier ways to take care someone, like melting their faces off. Magic in WoW has always been used in very practical ways, streamlined depending to what powers it.

It just sounds rather silly to use lutes and guitars to fight monsters when you might as well pick a stick and hit it, or learn magic to burn it/melt it/freeze it, or stab it, or burn it with holy light.

It does begs the question. Is it too far removed from Brewmasters? Using Ales to fight? Yes and no. Brewmaster is a specialization of the Monk, so it's basically a monk that uses unique alchemy.

But then would bard work as a spec of a existing class? making them a new class sounds far-fetched to me, but a spec sounds doable. But not imperative or best suited at all.

well the entire monk class is really just a brewmaster but different aspects of it and expanded on. they were originally just gonna have the class be brewmaster but they decided to add in other stuff to it but at the end of the day the class is still pretty much a brewmaster.

plus drunken monks have been shown in mythology and different media in asia alot. the trope that pandaren represent shows up all the time in anime and old kung fu movies and whatnot. i think you'ed be hard pressed to find anything outside maybe a siren that uses singing and instruments as its main weapon or skill set

[Deleted]

Well, I do hold lore in a much higher regard than gameplay, not equal at all. The story is what matters the most, the gameplay is just the medium. Why bother to discuss gameplay when there's not a strong lore reason behind? That's what I meant. Gameplay is subservient to lore in all accounts and gameplay can only goes as far as changes in lore have internal consistency and plausibility.

I agree to an extent, but WoW is still a game.

They could justify adding necromancers as a class - but if they played absolutely identically to warlocks, then regardless of lore - they can't justify adding that class from a gameplay point of view.

Likewise if they can justify adding >insert justified lore class here<, but it just played terribly - it would have to take a bench until they could figure out a way to make it work.

I completely agree that lore is just as important, there's a whole swatch of posts on the warlock forum with me throwing a fit about the suggestions that Warlocks should start throwing sha-spells around, because that would be easy to do mechanically - it's just cosmetic effects, but lore wise? No, it doesn't work and shouldn't be added.

I struggle to view either one as being subservient to the other, you can have as much lore justification for a more as you want, but if it doesn't work in the game then it isn't getting implemented - there are heaps of scrapped raids, class changes and the like that are lying on the cutting room floor because of that reason - regardless of lore, WoW is still a game and needs to function. If either of the fronts fails, lore or gameplay, the idea doesn't make it into the game.

[TheDangerZone]

I agree to an extent, but WoW is still a game.

They could justify adding necromancers as a class - but if they played absolutely identically to warlocks, then regardless of lore - they can't justify adding that class from a gameplay point of view.

Likewise if they can justify adding >insert justified lore class here<, but it just played terribly - it would have to take a bench until they could figure out a way to make it work.

I completely agree that lore is just as important, there's a whole swatch of posts on the warlock forum with me throwing a fit about the suggestions that Warlocks should start throwing sha-spells around, because that would be easy to do mechanically - it's just cosmetic effects, but lore wise? No, it doesn't work and shouldn't be added.

I struggle to view either one as being subservient to the other, you can have as much lore justification for a more as you want, but if it doesn't work in the game then it isn't getting implemented - there are heaps of scrapped raids, class changes and the like that are lying on the cutting room floor because of that reason - regardless of lore, WoW is still a game and needs to function. If either of the fronts fails, lore or gameplay, the idea doesn't make it into the game.

But that's the point: Necromancers exist in lore; you just can't play as one. High elves are part of the alliance and are really involved, but you can't play with them. Lore exists outside gameplay, and that's not counting the books and comics. Gameplay affects the lore, that's not denied, but it has it's limits and can't go beyond that. Lore can just exist in words.

[Deleted]

No, I don't feel they fit with WoW. If they were just a spec of a class, sure, it might, a class like... I don't know, it can have a reasonable story to fit, but as a stand-alone class no.
And as a spec if they were implemented I feel they'd be so because the class they belong to decided to use the musical instrument as a beacon for their power, as in use it as a focus... like death knights use their swords.

[darkwarrior42]

In most games, yes. IN this game, no.

Bards are traditionally best as a support class.... some healing, some buffing, some debuffing, some control, these are all pretty typical roles for a bard. Since WoW does not have a support role, there's just no good way to support the Bard and have it make sense.

(I'm not going to bother with the lore, because it's patently obvious that Blizzard does not start with lore when designing classes or the like. They start with mechanics, and come up with justification after the fact... and since the mechanics don't work, we don't need to move to phase 2.)

[Stormcall]

So do I, but gameplay factors come into the equation too.

Bards have no right being a tank or dps class, they might work as a healer- though even then they'd ideally be a buff class, but those don't exist anymore.

But ingame a class can't function on one healing tree, and lore-wise you can't justify them being a tank or dps.

He sings folksy hippy songs, strumming a mandolin and wearing flower child clothing or something as a healer, then for dps he dons a leather jacket, spiked bracelets, whips out an electric guitar and starts cranking out some thrash or death metal riffs(or maybe some doom and grindcore if you prefer a metal tank, still wearing leather, but boosted by the power of METAL)?

Okay, so maybe it wouldn't fit WoW, but I'd still love going around destroying my enemies with some scorching solos.

[Immitis]

In most games, yes. IN this game, no.

Bards are traditionally best as a support class.... some healing, some buffing, some debuffing, some control, these are all pretty typical roles for a bard. Since WoW does not have a support role, there's just no good way to support the Bard and have it make sense.

(I'm not going to bother with the lore, because it's patently obvious that Blizzard does not start with lore when designing classes or the like. They start with mechanics, and come up with justification after the fact... and since the mechanics don't work, we don't need to move to phase 2.)

actually they do start with the lore when it comes to races and classes.

most of the time expansions start being developed as soon as the current one comes out the first things they start on? concept art and story ideas.

first they look at the story then they look at what fits and then they look at whats popular AND THEN they look at game mechanics.

the most important thing is how a class looks and feels because thats what makes people like them. mechanics while still important pale in comparison to look and feel.

take out all the flashy animations and gear and a warlock is pretty much the same as a priest or a mage but with the different themes and attitudes and looks they feel completely different

[Deleted]

You want to make 'poet' a class?

While you're at it, add 'painter' as class as well! Fruit vendor, baker, nanny..

[Detheavn]

As a 4th tree for rogues maybe, a support class dealing short to medium time bufs and/or debuffs to respectively allies and enemies.
Some healing capabilities should be in order though.

Should hit like a wet noodle

[Rockwood]

You want to make 'poet' a class?

While you're at it, add 'painter' as class as well! Fruit vendor, baker, nanny..

ooo I call dibs on the baker. I want the Pie, Pastry & Cakes spec. I want to kill an Old god
with cupcakes!

OT: WoW is driven by lore, it is only when current game issues need balancing do they
bend the lore such as Holy Cows. So when a class doesn't fit the lore or has never been
in the lore, it is safe to say its not on Blizzards to do list.

[Dark_Spirit]

"The protagonist arrives with a guitar and plays a solo of 26 minutes. The dragon kills himself out of boredom."

I don't think Bards are fitting in the WoW universe as a brand new class out of nowhere. Some new ranger class would make more sence since now the ranged weapons are useless for any others but hunters.

[draica]

if you look at the heart of the bard, as a jack of all trades, it's essentially a rogue that also knows some magic. with the music as a facade, trickery to hide the truth of what they are doing. strip the musical component and it's a red mage, plain and simple. I doubt it could be justified as a class, but as a 4th rogue spec as a healer with some dps capability like the mistweaver, possibly

[Boogums]

Bard - Uses staves, daggers, 1h swords, 1h axes, 1h maces, guns, crossbows, bows
Spec 1 - Caster DPS - Uses int mail, caster weapons
Spec 2 - Melee DPS - Uses agi mail 1h melee weapons
Spec 3 - Ranged DPS - Uses agi mail guns, crossbows, and bows

I know bards traditionally use leather, but mail used by the least amount of classes atm. Casters use instrument animations for their spells, melee use instruments (picture breaking a lute on someone's head) for "cooldown" strikes (like Eviserate or Rising Sun Kick) or buffs (like Horn of Winter or Tiger Brew) and ranged DPS use guns bows and xbows with instruments thrown in for buffs (like Focus Fire) or "cooldown" shots (like Explosive Shot)

I think it could work, and it would be a nice change to the traditional WoW stuff in-game. Also, having a new pure DPS class would be fun and something we haven't had yet.

[Kryos]

Bard in Rift worked fine - I would like that class. Problem: Items. Blizz would need to add tons of instruments items just for one class.

[Deleted]

Bard - Uses staves, daggers, 1h swords, 1h axes, 1h maces, guns, crossbows, bows
Spec 1 - Caster DPS - Uses int mail, caster weapons
Spec 2 - Melee DPS - Uses agi mail 1h melee weapons
Spec 3 - Ranged DPS - Uses agi mail guns, crossbows, and bows

I know bards traditionally use leather, but mail used by the least amount of classes atm. Casters use instrument animations for their spells, melee use instruments (picture breaking a lute on someone's head) for "cooldown" strikes (like Eviserate or Rising Sun Kick) or buffs (like Horn of Winter or Tiger Brew) and ranged DPS use guns bows and xbows with instruments thrown in for buffs (like Focus Fire) or "cooldown" shots (like Explosive Shot)

I think it could work, and it would be a nice change to the traditional WoW stuff in-game. Also, having a new pure DPS class would be fun and something we haven't had yet.

Yeah, i am too pro-bards.

Mostly one of the last ( after tinket ) class that can/will be added to wow.

Dps-support role would fit and change a bit the style of game.

And it doesnt come from aion , but from way before .. that doesnt mean that it still wouldnt be a nice idea.