I think people are underestimating how bad the Warrior nerfs actually are.

[Deleted]

A very good post, really liked the long explanation instead of a short summary. I do play Warrior and Mage, and the incoming nerfs feel a lot too much.

So you play from a perspective of 2 very strong classes in PvP (if not one of the strongest)...warriors are fine. Come back to us once warriors are doing shit, so see you maybe next Xpack.

[kleinlax21]

Wasn't a wall of text, and thank you for your amazing input on why Warriors will be the best melee in 5.2

OT: The nerfs are way too harsh, overpower and second wind mostly. Lets not forget all the buffs other classes are getting

I'm not sure about the DPS nerfs, but as far as the defensive nerfs go, see my post above. The damage reduction nerf isn't that bad considering it stacks multiplicatively with Resil, and the Second Wind nerf isn't terrible as well. As far as damage reduction is concerned, you can be sure they those two specifically wont make much of a difference.

I think we can all be mature and admit Warriors needed a bit of a damage nerf as well. As to the severity of the current nerfs, I cannot and will not speculate as to whether or not they are too harsh, too mild, or just right, because I honestly do not know.

[Hand Banana]

And all was right in the world.

Honestly your comparison's to dks via death strike is pretty bad. Your also forgetting that blood presence also increases stamina by 25% (unless I missed a change to that somewhere). Plus the fact that dks also have lichborne healing and death pact which can be used at a time when your not just about to die like second wind.

And a loss in ten percent damage reduction, while a heavy nerf, will be offset by the increased damage dealing capability you have when using Battle Stance.

Our damage is decreasing in 5.2. Heroic strike will be hitting for jack shit now and we rarely have the gcds for slam and overpower will cost rage now as well. Battle stance doesnt increase our damage, just increases our rage which becomes damage through HS and slam, but as I just said HS is taking a hit from TfB and slam isnt usable very often.

Also, warriors in battle stance above 35% health have absolutely 0 healing of any kind, and absolutely 0 damage reduction of any kind. And now have nothing to help them through stuns. Not sure any other class in the game is that vulnerable. Talk about an easy stun switch kill target...

[kleinlax21]

Honestly your comparison's to dks via death strike is pretty bad. Your also forgetting that blood presence also increases stamina by 25% (unless I missed a change to that somewhere). Plus the fact that dks also have lichborne healing and death pact which can be used at a time when your not just about to die like second wind.

I was strictly comparing healing per second capable of producing, especially noting that yours is passive and a DK's is active and requires damage sacrifice solely for gaining healing. We can go back and forth, with you listing some DK cooldown and saying how it offsets this disparity, and I can respond by saying "nuh uh!!" amd listing your defensive cooldowns, knowing full well that it will just degenerate into a non-constructive ability-listing-fest the likes of which gets threads locked. OR, you can look at some math that took me a damn long time to type on this iPad and admire me for my hand strength and resistance to cramps.

So, my rebuttal: You guys have Shield Wall, Die by the Sword, and Rallying Cry. Your move, I guess?

Our damage is decreasing in 5.2. Heroic strike will be hitting for jack shit now and we rarely have the gcds for slam and overpower will cost rage now as well. Battle stance doesnt increase our damage, just increases our rage which becomes damage through HS and slam, but as I just said HS is taking a hit from TfB and slam isnt usable very often.

Also, warriors in battle stance above 35% health have absolutely 0 healing of any kind, and absolutely 0 damage reduction of any kind. And now have nothing to help them through stuns. Not sure any other class in the game is that vulnerable. Talk about an easy stun switch kill target...

Like I said (in another post) I won't (and shouldn't have) comment on the damage nerfs, as I have no appropriate perspective on them. However, Warr's still have 2.1% healing per second in battle stance when not stunned. And, like I mentioned earlier, you'd need to remain in a stun for 41 seconds per minute to achieve the same healing per minute as a DK can achieve while sacrificing damage to do so.

Again, there is a disparity between the two. However, don't misunderstand me: I'm not trying to say "hurr durr, Warrior's are still OP and DK's are the forgotten class of the expac hurr durr 300k Heroic Strike Crits in full PvP gear hurr durr." I'm trying to put these nerfs in perspective, and I just used DK's as the comparison example because they are considered a viable train target right now. Don't misunderstand where I'm coming from.

[Deleted]

TLDR would have been more appropriate, because it was not a wall of text, he did use paragraphs. A lot of them and they were pretty long, but he did use them.

OP, you may be 100% correct, I don't know, I don't play mope. But you are not going to find a lot of sympathy from non-warriors anywhere. You say its not fair to have a bad season coming off a good one, well it hasn't been just one good season for warriors. I played the game from the last few months of Vanilla right up until Dragonsoul and warriors were the top or near the top for every single raid and every single season that I played.

A well structured wall is no less a wall. OP, I'm sure some of your points are sound, but other than ranting about it and likely provoking people who disagree at a near flamebait level, isn't this the sort of feedback Blizz should see? IE not MMO-C

[kleinlax21]

A well structured wall is no less a wall. OP, I'm sure some of your points are sound, but other than ranting about it and likely provoking people who disagree at a near flamebait level, isn't this the sort of feedback Blizz should see? IE not MMO-C

The idea that somebody should have to consolidate their work into a single sentence after posting because some people are too impatient to read it and comment appropriately is asinine.

Also, MMO-C technically doesn't allow TL ; DR statements, but I've never seen anyone get infracted for them.

[Yvaelle]

The idea that somebody should have to consolidate their work into a single sentence after posting because some people are too impatient to read it and comment appropriately is asinine.

Also, MMO-C technically doesn't allow TL ; DR statements, but I've never seen anyone get infracted for them.

I've handed out three since becoming a mod (2-3 months ago), I only usually do it when people say "TL;DR" and then either "10 chars" or something derogatory with it - or if I'm particularly fed up with TL;DR's that day

[Hand Banana]

So, my rebuttal: You guys have Shield Wall, Die by the Sword, and Rallying Cry. Your move, I guess?

Well I was limiting my argument to healing abilities lol. However active dks heals are they have mutliple cds or abilities they can use to heal themselves while we have just 1 passive hot . But yea they are different, really shouldnt compare them. Anyway I will admit thats impressive on an ipad :P

Like I said (in another post) I won't (and shouldn't have) comment on the damage nerfs, as I have no appropriate perspective on them. However, Warr's still have 2.1% healing per second in battle stance when not stunned. And, like I mentioned earlier, you'd need to remain in a stun for 41 seconds per minute to achieve the same healing per minute as a DK can achieve while sacrificing damage to do so.

Again, wars have that healing per second when below 35% only. Anyway ive never heard a high rated player complaining about second wind. Its more the package around it which just got nerfed via D stance, and we will be D less often.

[kleinlax21]

I've handed out three since becoming a mod (2-3 months ago), I only usually do it when people say "TL;DR" and then either "10 chars" or something derogatory with it - or if I'm particularly fed up with TL;DR's that day

Damn, did NOT expect that response :P lol good to know my activities are being watched.

[Illiterate]

Warrior tears. So yummy! Give me more

[kleinlax21]

Well I was limiting my argument to healing abilities lol. However active dks heals are they have mutliple cds or abilities they can use to heal themselves while we have just 1 passive hot . But yea they are different, really shouldnt compare them. Anyway I will admit thats impressive on an ipad :P

Again, wars have that healing per second when below 35% only. Anyway ive never heard a high rated player complaining about second wind. Its more the package around it which just got nerfed via D stance, and we will be D less often.

Lol, yeah there are give-and-take's to each package. I just wanted to address the claim that "THE SKIES ARE FALLING REROOOOOOLL" which clearly isn't the case(as far as defenses go). I think you guys will do alright as far as defenses go. Y'all probably won't be a very viable train target, unless you are facing a comp with a lot of stuns. IDK about the damage nerfs, however. If I was forced to guess, I'd estimate you guys will be around the Frost DK come 5.2. I'm pretty confident you guys will still be better than Enhance and Ret, but I do think you guys will lose your spot as the premiere melee damage dealer in PvP.

Here's to hoping that no spec ever has what happened to you guys and Resto Druids in Cata, and Rogues in Mists.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I'm not going to pretend I am an >9000 rated arena master, or that I am a super experienced Warrior player... But I have played a Warrior off and on since Vanilla. The only reason I started one was because they were one of the stronger PVP classes when bg's got big. I was tired of getting hit hard by them so I made one. ANYWAY.

Doing random BG's on my Warlock, mixed Dreadful/Mal gear... I saw a Warrior start to run my way so I pop my DR CD, which is a 40% CD. When this Warrior stomps me and it goes like this:

Heroic Leap - 95,000
Shockwave - 85,000
Random Melee hits- Walks away while I am stunned
Charge - stun
DEAD.

This was a matter of seconds. I just find this to be utterly ridiculous. I know Locks can hit some big crits, but those require me to standstill/walk slow and have a long cast time, and is easily forseen. My major problems with warriors is a single ability will crit you for 100k, but also has an aoe stun attached. A single ability that that can crit for 100k, and can be used as just another gap closer/escape. These are of course instant cast abilities.

I'm not saying Warriors should have cast times, but having THAT MUCH utility with huge numbers is too much for me.

[postpunk27]

Do you have actual access to hard data? Bottom of the barrel. Wasn't that rogues complaining that they are stuck now? I think I have heard it from enhancement shammys, too. Certainly Unholy DKs complain. I mean..there is a thread on how "my" class is gonna suck and "your" class is gonna be OP every week. And it is for every class indeed....and for every specc of every class...

But yeah, at the end of the day, out of ..let us say 20 dps speccs, one will come out on top and one on the bottom with 18 inbetween.

Nail meet hammer. Your comment should be made into a commemorative plaque, or something of that ilk. Anytime a class QQ thread arises, your comment should always be the default first post. Always.

[cFortyfive]

No matter how conclusive you present such topics - it will never end up good. Whoever believes that the pure amount of nerfs and buffs to different classes could ever randomly lead to something remotely resembling balance has never played a game at a competitive level. Not even mentioning the total lack of a remotely competitive community which leads to posts mostly coming from super biased people referring to their bg and dueling experiences.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one who thinks Warriors are going to be bottom of the barrel in 5.2 out of all of the melee?

Good, stop crying everyone is now tired of being shit on by warriors and all their fuckin retarded CDs stop crying and get over it your only gonna reroll the next fotm anyway.

[Deleted]

Warrior tears. So yummy! Give me more

Even more ironic because most warriors fully know they WILL get nerfed, as warriors ALWAYS get nerfed, yet somehow it still comes as surprise to a lot of warriors.

Oh well, back to your rogue mains next patch, guys, show's over.

[mmmmmmmBacon]

what really makes me sad, is the 10 rage cost on Overpower.
Really, guys, if you don't play a warrior, you can't understand how this change will fuck up our rage management.
Basically, you will have to stay in battle stance to generate enough rage to put pressure (that is ok), making Def stance a huge damage loss.
So, in the end, everything will be like: Train the warrior, force him defensive, let him do 0 pressure, s10-11 style.

so basically you'll either have to play like a ret who has no passive damage reductions at all when you're in battle stance and run the risk of dying at any second your pvp trinket is up, or you can stay in defensive stance where you take 15% less damage for a damage loss.

Having a hard time feeling bad for you.

[Nicola]

Am I the only one who thinks Warriors are going to be bottom of the barrel in 5.2 out of all of the melee? I've been reading some other threads about the nerfs and most people keep claiming that Warriors are going to be "fine, just not OP." Here are some of my thoughts why I believe Warriors are going to be terrible if nothing changes. Its long.

They won't, it's pretty damn hard to get below enh and rets..

Second Wind Nerf/Defensive Stance nerf - This nerf is downright absurd and I'll explain why because I've seen so much ignorance floating around from people who've never played a Warrior. Warriors in Cataclysm originally had Second Wind and an ability named Blood Craze. Without going into details Blood Craze had a 10% chance of healing the Warrior when he received any damage source. Second Wind would only heal through a stun. Basically, these two talents healed for such a minimal amount, that it only made Warrior more resilient against bleeds and dots over DK's who have no passive healing. Old Battle Stance gave the Warrior 5% damage reduction and 5% damage bonus. The only heal that Warriors had that mattered was Enraged Regeneration, which at the time, healed for 30% of health over 10 seconds... 3 minute cool down. Then there was a talent called Field Dressing that buffed it to 36% I believe, but I forget the actual numbers.

Defensive stance is just retarded, 25% passive damage reduction without losing to much damage. Any other class that has this? I think not.
As for second wind, it doesn't affect arena to much while it allows people to kill warriors by stunning them instead of saving all their burst till the end. For many classes it's near impossible to kill a warrior 1v1 due second wind unless they have offensive cooldowns ready.

Back to healing, Rallying Cry is basically the only "heal" Warriors have but its mostly used as a utility ability to stack with shaman spirit link. Enraged Regeneration is now a talent that has to be chosen over Second Wind but its now a 10% heal on a 1 minute cool down. In other words, it sucks. 5.2 Second Wind is still affected by battle fatigue, and currently doesn't heal through stuns. That basically means once the Warrior is caught in a stun, he could go from 100-0 without a trinket. Before DK's and Ret Paladins go ape shit and explain to me "Well too bad, that's what we have to deal with" let me explain that Warriors have no jail cards out of stuns besides a trinket.

In arena you won't die in a single stun and in battlegrounds, that gotta be one long stun if you want to die 100-0. You already have a fear immunity, what a stun breaker as well? Too bad.

Warriors are also the only melee in the game that moves at 100% movement speed against most classes who can run up to 115% or even up to 125%. Warriors are basically turtles and hamstring is joke considering its only a 50% movement debuff that requires melee range and 10 rage and is also easily dispelled. Compare that to Ret paladin Burden of Guilt which is basically a free ranged 50% movement slow that gives the Ret paladin one charge of holy power and if the ret is specced into long arm of the law can run up to 45% movement speed for 3 seconds. Judgement is only on a 6 second cool down and that cool down can be lowered through haste stacking.

108%, you have enchant on boots bro, also, charge, intervene, leap? It's not like warriors have no mobility >.>
As for hamstring, afaik you can't dispel it, freedom and other slowremoving abilities remove it though, but that counts for every slow.

Basically what I'm trying to explain is that Warriors can't kite melee. They have no tools outside of safeguard to break snares and mainly rely on team mates to dispell for them. Warriors don't have stealth, nor do they any type of fade or absorb type abilities. They have fear immunity every 30 seconds, which is great but not useful if the Warrior is the target getting trained. All they have is damage reduction abilities such as Shield Wall and Demoralizing Banner which only delay the inevitable due to their long cool downs. Heroic Leap, safeguard is really the only "escape" a Warrior has, but a defensive Warrior is a dead Warrior. Warriors are only doing well when they are maintaining pressure. If they're constantly being trained into the ground, they're more of a burden to the team healer than an actual asset. This is why I believe 5.1 Second Wind with 25% Defensive stance was not only fine, but necessary if you have a 40 second Shockwave. Warriors are Warriors, they're meant to have high passive defense for their complete lack of being able to avoid damage and slow ass movement speed.

So, 25% passive damage reduction is necessary because your overpowered aoe stun is now on a 40sec cooldown. Wait wut?
I'm totally fine warriors have high defense, as long as they do terrible damage. Either you go offensive, or you go defensive, not both at once, that's just overpowered.
There is not a single melee that is as bulky as a warrior that can do such an amount of damage.

Also, any class that's constantly being trained is a burden, and guess what, many classes are better targets to train. Warlocks, death knights, druids, all better targets to train then a warrior.

Warriors will remain good. All the nerfs they are getting are justified and needed. Warriors are so high in the food chain now, that there is little reason to take another melee over a warrior right now. It's better to nerf one class, than having to buff every single other class to the same level warriors are on right now....

[Kreeshak]

After playing a warrior for a good 6-7 years, through the good times and bad times, its time to realise that fotm class > all and either quit or play how blizzard wants me to play.

[Deleted]

TLDR would have been more appropriate, because it was not a wall of text, he did use paragraphs. A lot of them and they were pretty long, but he did use them.

OP, you may be 100% correct, I don't know, I don't play mope. But you are not going to find a lot of sympathy from non-warriors anywhere. You say its not fair to have a bad season coming off a good one, well it hasn't been just one good season for warriors. I played the game from the last few months of Vanilla right up until Dragonsoul and warriors were the top or near the top for every single raid and every single season that I played.

Lol. /10chars