Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Haven]

See, it's not all about the race. The Sunreavers weren't thrown out because they were Blood Elves, they were thrown out because they're Sunreavers. It's about affiliation and not about genetics. High Elves are the same race as Blood Elves, and the Alliance is fine with them. Stop making this argument.

She didn't condemn her own people for analogous shit, that's the point.

Neither is dropping a bomb on a city.

Hey, it's actually war out there. And Dalaran was supposed to be kinda Geneva. "A german spy was caught in Geneva!" - "CONVICT AND KILL ALL GERMAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE IN GENEVA!!!" There simply isn't a justification for a pogrom. I remember Alliance making this argument in regards to Horde massacring Alliance troops after Taurajo. "It's not fair, Horde should've done an investigation and find the exact responsible one, genocide is not an answer, yadda yadda".

[Duncanîdaho]

I think that if Blizzard wanted they could have found a replacement for Thrall. You don't really need to be a Shaman in order to control the Dragon Soul. It's true that Thrall is the most powerful shaman as it's one of my favorite characters but I believe Blizzard can write their scenario with 1000 possible ways.

It's not a matter of just using it. Deathwing never put a piece of Khazgoroth's essence in it himself, Thrall did it for him. It gave it the extra punch it needed because it drew on one of Deathwing's sources of power. Would you really wanted to have scene some random shaman out of nowhere in lore pop up and wield that kind of power? It had to be a shaman to be able to commune with the earth on that level lorewise to even complete the thing to be able to use effectively on Deathwing. Personally I'm glad they used Thrall. It led to all this fun lore lately by giving Garrosh free reign because Thrall had to step down.

[GennGreymane]

I will slay any forsaken I see


and already do

to hell with the horde

[Mormolyce]

It's not a matter of just using it. Deathwing never put a piece of Khazgoroth's essence in it himself, Thrall did it for him. It gave it the extra punch it needed because it drew on one of Deathwing's sources of power. Would you really wanted to have scene some random shaman out of nowhere in lore pop up and wield that kind of power? It had to be a shaman to be able to commune with the earth on that level lorewise to even complete the thing to be able to use effectively on Deathwing. Personally I'm glad they used Thrall. It led to all this fun lore lately by giving Garrosh free reign because Thrall had to step down.

I don't remember anything about Khaz'goroth's essence. What is that from?

[Haven]

I will slay any forsaken I see


and already do

to hell with the horde

Uncool, bro.

[Justignoreme]

Hey, it's actually war out there. And Dalaran was supposed to be kinda Geneva. "A german spy was caught in Geneva!" - "CONVICT AND KILL ALL GERMAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE IN GENEVA!!!"

That's a poor analogy. "A Swiss Nazi sympathiser was caught in Geneva breaking into the Allied embassy and stealing intel which resulted in the Nazis stealing technology and killing Allied troops abroad. Detain all Swiss Nazi sympathisers and neutralise any whom resist so that we can find this backstabbing betrayer of our neutrality." is a far better one...

[Aquamonkey]

That's a poor analogy. "A Swiss Nazi sympathiser was caught in Geneva breaking into the Allied embassy and stealing intel which resulted in the Nazis stealing technology and killing Allied troops abroad. Detain all Swiss Nazi sympathisers and neutralise any whom resist so that we can find this backstabbing betrayer of our neutrality." is a far better one...

Except, "caught" should be "proclaimed by a psychic to have."

[Haven]

That's a poor analogy. "A Swiss Nazi sympathiser was caught in Geneva breaking into the Allied embassy and stealing intel which resulted in the Nazis stealing technology and killing Allied troops abroad. Detain all Swiss Nazi sympathisers and neutralise any whom resist so that we can find this backstabbing betrayer of our neutrality." is a far better one...

Also looks kinda poor because, you know, everyone hates nazis. And I kinda feel the point that Jaina helping the Alliance "secure" the bell, broke the neutrality in the first place. She kinda had to decide which side she was on. If she's with Kirin Tor, it was not her business altogether, and if she's Alliance, it's only fair that Horde spies steal from her because, well, Horde is at war with Alliance. Otherwise it's rather hypocritical that she, as a leader of Kirin Tor, enforces neutrality and tolerance in her (?) city while openly aiding one side when she's not in Dalaran. And then she demands Aethas' head like he's supposed to be held accountable.

[Justignoreme]

Also looks kinda poor because, you know, everyone hates nazis.

no, I wasn't using Nazis as an example of something everyone hated, merely a WW2 analogy since Switzerland was famously neutral. I suppose I could've said "stealing stuff for the Kaiser" but that might've been over everyones heads.

And I kinda feel the point that Jaina helping the Alliance "secure" the bell, broke the neutrality in the first place.

No, she wasn't helping the Alliance specifically. The Ward was to prevent theft of a powerful artifact, from Horde or Alliance hands. She didn't put a ward on Darnassus specifically to keep the Horde out.

She kinda had to decide which side she was on. If she's with Kirin Tor, it was not her business altogether

Wrong again. The UN is neutral, but they will engage in support roles to prevent things from happening, like setting up DMZs etc. The Horde, whom have already made it clear they have no problems whatsoever unleashing any kind of terrible, horrible destructive power recklessly upon the Alliance, shouldn't be having access to such a weapon.

and if she's Alliance, it's only fair that Horde spies steal from her because, well, Horde is at war with Alliance.

It wasn't "horde spies" it was "Sunreaver betrayers", even the Sunreavers themselves were betrayed by them, but because of the association and their flat out resistance to an investigation, things spiraled out of control. Jaina isn't guilty of anything other than jumping the gun, I presume she wasn't aware of Varian's negotiations. To accuse genocide or even murder is ludicrous.

Otherwise it's rather hypocritical that she, as a leader of Kirin Tor, enforces neutrality and tolerance in her (?) city while openly aiding one side when she's not in Dalaran.

Again, the ward wasn't "aiding the Alliance". It was designed to keep the Bell away from hands that shouldn't have it. Be it mental patient Maiev, genocidal maniacs of the Horde or a wayward admiral rogers looking to start her own research project.

And then she demands Aethas' head like he's supposed to be held accountable.

She didn't demand Aethas' head. If she wanted him dead she would've incinerated him instantly. She presumed Aethas knew what was going on because he's the head of the Sunreavers and Sunreavers were responsible. She was arresting Sunreavers, rounding them up for questioning and interrogation (zealous players would be the ones engaging in any slaughter, and fortunately thats not really canon), it's called a dragnet. Law Enforcement does this stuff all the time, but if you start opening fire on the cops and get shot dead, it's your own fault. She wanted to know who was responsible for bypassing her wards. The Sunreavers didn't know, legitimately, but why should she believe their word when it's the second time a Sunreaver has done this to her?

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:02 AM ----------

Except, "caught" should be "proclaimed by a psychic to have."

No, it wasn't proclaimed by a psychic. Do the Alliance side quests and you'll know she had all the evidence she needed... (or does no one on this bloody horde loving forum play Alliance at all even to see the other side of the story?)

[Deleted]

She didn't condemn her own people for analogous shit, that's the point.

Hey, it's actually war out there. And Dalaran was supposed to be kinda Geneva. "A german spy was caught in Geneva!" - "CONVICT AND KILL ALL GERMAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE IN GENEVA!!!" There simply isn't a justification for a pogrom. I remember Alliance making this argument in regards to Horde massacring Alliance troops after Taurajo. "It's not fair, Horde should've done an investigation and find the exact responsible one, genocide is not an answer, yadda yadda".

Why would she condemn her own people. It's still not about race and you still haven't understood that.

[Yriel]

No, she wasn't helping the Alliance specifically. The Ward was to prevent theft of a powerful artifact, from Horde or Alliance hands. She didn't put a ward on Darnassus specifically to keep the Horde out.

So the ward was supposed to keep the alliance out of ... Darnassus ??? I really don't get it.

It wasn't "horde spies" it was "Sunreaver betrayers", even the Sunreavers themselves were betrayed by them, but because of the association and their flat out resistance to an investigation, things spiraled out of control. Jaina isn't guilty of anything other than jumping the gun, I presume she wasn't aware of Varian's negotiations. To accuse genocide or even murder is ludicrous.

Resistance to investigation ? What investigations ? She ported back and immediately started killing blood elves, told Aethas to leave the city and when he said as much as "Wait a minute" she imprisoned him and started her rampage.
Actually thats what many Horde player accuse her of, that she never started to investigate anything and that there were no trials. Every blood elf was guilty by kin liability in her eyes.

Again, the ward wasn't "aiding the Alliance". It was designed to keep the Bell away from hands that shouldn't have it. Be it mental patient Maiev, genocidal maniacs of the Horde or a wayward admiral rogers looking to start her own research project.

So then why should the Night Elves have it ? Ever played the new Tyrande scenario at the red crane temple ? Not really the person you want to give the bell to.

[Haven]

no, I wasn't using Nazis as an example of something everyone hated, merely a WW2 analogy since Switzerland was famously neutral. I suppose I could've said "stealing stuff for the Kaiser" but that might've been over everyones heads.

You gat that effect whether you wanted it or not, so be careful. Bringing up real world analogues is fine, mentioning WW2 is fine, but bringing up nazis is what Godwins threads, because everyone automatically hates nazis (or a person who mentions them in what they think is an unappropriate comparison).

No, she wasn't helping the Alliance specifically. The Ward was to prevent theft of a powerful artifact, from Horde or Alliance hands. She didn't put a ward on Darnassus specifically to keep the Horde out.

But why wasn't the bell kept on a neutral territory (in Violet Citadel, why not?), why was Jaina so pissed that Horde stole it, and why did she choose Darnassus and not, say, Undercity?

Wrong again. The UN is neutral, but they will engage in support roles to prevent things from happening, like setting up DMZs etc. The Horde, whom have already made it clear they have no problems whatsoever unleashing any kind of terrible, horrible destructive power recklessly upon the Alliance, shouldn't be having access to such a weapon.

Now that's an argument that I can understand and agree with.

It wasn't "horde spies" it was "Sunreaver betrayers", even the Sunreavers themselves were betrayed by them, but because of the association and their flat out resistance to an investigation, things spiraled out of control. Jaina isn't guilty of anything other than jumping the gun, I presume she wasn't aware of Varian's negotiations. To accuse genocide or even murder is ludicrous.

But the pogrom actually happened. And look at it from the Sunreavers' perspective - wild accusations, armed members of Silver Covenant around (finally getting a long-awaited excuse) and all kinds of shit they were told would not happen until Jaina is in charge... with Jaina in charge of all that shit. To them, it looked like Alliance took over and tried to force them out of the city, giving up everything in process (for the Covenant to plunder).

Again, the ward wasn't "aiding the Alliance". It was designed to keep the Bell away from hands that shouldn't have it. Be it mental patient Maiev, genocidal maniacs of the Horde or a wayward admiral rogers looking to start her own research project.

It's like placing a grenade in your pants. What did she expect? That no one will ever try to steal it ad no one would ever outsmart her? The only right way to achieve what you said would've been to drown it in Maelstrom, throw it off Outland into the Nether, or get a Harmonic Mallet and wreck it. Or just wreck it if it was possible. But no, she preferred to keep it "safe" thinking she's the smartest one around here.

She didn't demand Aethas' head. If she wanted him dead she would've incinerated him instantly. She presumed Aethas knew what was going on because he's the head of the Sunreavers and Sunreavers were responsible. She was arresting Sunreavers, rounding them up for questioning and interrogation (zealous players would be the ones engaging in any slaughter, and fortunately thats not really canon), it's called a dragnet. Law Enforcement does this stuff all the time, but if you start opening fire on the cops and get shot dead, it's your own fault. She wanted to know who was responsible for bypassing her wards. The Sunreavers didn't know, legitimately, but why should she believe their word when it's the second time a Sunreaver has done this to her?

...and if we remember how humans wronged blood elves during the Third War, one should think it's a miracle of generosity if a BE entrusts a human with anything more than a burned match.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 01:56 PM ----------

Why would she condemn her own people. It's still not about race and you still haven't understood that.

Humans did the exact same thing, even worse - turned over to the deadliest common enemy, giving Scourgу upper hand in numerous situations. It was way worse than the whole Divine Bell ordeal, yet at that time Jaina didn't even think of a mass "investigation".

[khalltusk]

All I want is for jaina to get a good kicking. Shes ramping up for it with all her warmongering (yes its mostly a reaction to what has happened to her but shes starting to mirror garrosh on a lesser level).

I don't mean have her die, I just want her to get a nose bleed and put in her place.

[Deleted]

All I want is for jaina to get a good kicking. Shes ramping up for it with all her warmongering (yes its mostly a reaction to what has happened to her but shes starting to mirror garrosh on a lesser level).

I don't mean have her die, I just want her to get a nose bleed and put in her place.

Don't worry, in the end she'll be consumed by her hatred and we'll have to take care of her. Vereesa will hopefully go the same path as Maiev and we can kick her ass.

[Deleted]

Humans did the exact same thing, even worse - turned over to the deadliest common enemy, giving Scourgу upper hand in numerous situations. It was way worse than the whole Divine Bell ordeal, yet at that time Jaina didn't even think of a mass "investigation".

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you say that Jaina should've investigated every human being alive, because Arthas sided with the Scourge? I've already said it twice, it has nothing to do with race.

[Combatbutler]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you say that Jaina should've investigated every human being alive, because Arthas sided with the Scourge? I've already said it twice, it has nothing to do with race.

One of the main problems is treachery within the ranks of the Kirin Tor has always been common and not every mage associated with those traitors was punished because of it, just look at how many magi betrayed the order by joining Malygos or the Scourge. Those are treated as some bad eggs but if a few Sunreavers step out of line they are all guilty.

[Aquamonkey]

She didn't demand Aethas' head. If she wanted him dead she would've incinerated him instantly. She presumed Aethas knew what was going on because he's the head of the Sunreavers and Sunreavers were responsible. She was arresting Sunreavers, rounding them up for questioning and interrogation (zealous players would be the ones engaging in any slaughter, and fortunately thats not really canon), it's called a dragnet. Law Enforcement does this stuff all the time, but if you start opening fire on the cops and get shot dead, it's your own fault. She wanted to know who was responsible for bypassing her wards. The Sunreavers didn't know, legitimately, but why should she believe their word when it's the second time a Sunreaver has done this to her?

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:02 AM ----------

No, it wasn't proclaimed by a psychic. Do the Alliance side quests and you'll know she had all the evidence she needed... (or does no one on this bloody horde loving forum play Alliance at all even to see the other side of the story?)

That presumption of Aethas' guilt is what psychic divination I was referring to. She had no evidence of Aethas' involvement. We don't know anything about what investigations Aethas conducted to find spies. Just because he didn't discover Fanlyr, doesn't mean he wasn't looking for spies.

Unfortunately, slaughter is canon: "Most Covenant agents are out slaughtering Sunreavers right now..." -Rommath

[Haven]

One of the main problems is treachery within the ranks of the Kirin Tor has always been common and not every mage associated with those traitors was punished because of it, just look at how many magi betrayed the order by joining Malygos or the Scourge. Those are treated as some bad eggs but if a few Sunreavers step out of line they are all guilty.

Yep, Combatbutler stated my point better - thanks, bro.

[Deleted]

One of the main problems is treachery within the ranks of the Kirin Tor has always been common and not every mage associated with those traitors was punished because of it, just look at how many magi betrayed the order by joining Malygos or the Scourge. Those are treated as some bad eggs but if a few Sunreavers step out of line they are all guilty.

Well if some faction in Dalaran made their affiliation with Malygos apparent while they were part of the Kirin Tor, betrayed them and joined the ranks of Malygos while abusing their position within theb Kirin Tor to help the Blue Dragonflight, I'm sure had she been the leader at that time she would've done something, just like Rhonin would've.

No no no, she should have exiled the entire nation of Lordaeron! Just like she did now.

Exile a nation you have no authority over because one human sided with the Scourge. How often do I have to mention it has nothing to do with race?

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Exile a nation you have no authority over because one human sided with the Scourge. How often do I have to mention it has nothing to do with race?

It may not be a nation she is exiling (she's doing far more than just a simple exile by the way, an exile would've been kinder), but she's doing something to an entire sub-faction because one Sunreaver sided with the Horde (likewise, she sided with the Alliance, mind you). And it IS a matter of race, whether you like it or not. Jaina may not have a concern, but the Silver Covenant certainly is playing the "We Hate The Sin'dorei" card.