Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[skrump]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

I have roughly the same computer but using a 550ti instead and I've yet to drop below 40fps in a 25m even with all settings maxed.

In either case blizz fails and so does the op's suggestion as the only way to encourage 25m raiding without diminishing 10m is by by removing the shared loot lockout.

Thus the question would no longer be about choosing 10 or 25 it would instead be about choosing if you want to do both.
Even in the past 10m guilds would get together to run 25m content for the additional chance at loot and the last 5 spots were normally filled by people who most likely would have been benched as reserves in 10m

[Deleted]

It's funny how you, all other threads around this subject, says that everybody loves 25m and would like to have shared lockout bla bla bla.

Back when I was a raider I hated 25m, I only did it because of gear/mounts etc. You ever think of that? How long I had to push in 25m's just because I felt it was mandatory and earlier in TBC etc there were no other options and had to be done. I loved the 10m change that came with Cataclysm, best that ever happend to me.

Stop crying like a little b*tch when you can't even see what other people prefer and feel for.

[Drakzlol]

You're not forced to raid 25!

Please stop saying "I'm forced to this, I'm forced to that"

Shut the fuck up. You're not forced to do anything. If you like 10 man, stick to that. 25 man raiders are a dying breed and we deserved this change. If you don't like it, learn to adapt or shut your mouth.

[Syio]

I think you might've misread the original post, Drakzlol...

[Kaiarra]

I do not understand this. So if I can't find a 25man group, I have an option of quitting or 10mans. Is that what you are saying?

For a start, you've said yourself that you're in an awkward timezone on the oceanic servers which have a limited community at the best of times.

As I see it you have 3 options:
1. You find a 25m guild that happens to fit around the times you wish to raid, and you join them however much you have to pay to xfer/faction change.
2. You make your own 25m guild that fits around the times you can raid.
3. You accept that you aren't prepared to put the effort required to raid 25m and either lower your expectations (raid 10m), don't raid at all, or yes... you quit.

There's always a lot of people saying they want to run 25-mans but almost none of them are prepared to try to run their own 25-man guild, so I guess people just don't want to run 25-mans enough? Or they only want to run 25-man if someone else organises it? Think that's one of the big issues here.

If so, does that not apply to 10mans if 25mans were given better loot? They have the option to do 10m if they can't find a 25m group.

If 25m once again gave better loot that 10m people would have zero issues getting into 25m guilds as 10m guilds would be basically nonexistent. I was in a 25m guild since the start of TBC, not because I liked 25m but because that's where the loot had always been, and as such where all the raiders were. Even in WotLK 10m raid guilds pretty much didn't exist - 10m was just something a small group from your 25m guild would do on the nights you didn't raid 25s.

People wouldn't really have an option at all, if you wanted to raid you would raid 25m or nothing; we'd be back to 10-man raids just being something you did on the off-nights with guys from your 25m raids (plus it'd have to be alt run 10m now with the shared lockouts).

[skrump]

I wish blizzard would just put 10/25m back on separate lockouts as neither one diminished the other and the people who were willing to put in more effort had a chance of getting rewarded more often.

It was in every way a better system than railroading raiders into doing dailies to increase their gearing rate.

Or you know they could just do that for the rest of this expansion and design the next expansion around a single raid size of 15-20 people
Or if they could remove the shared lockouts and keep 10m however downsize 25 to 20 thus 10m guilds could get together to pursue 25m content.

[Kronik85]

I like how most of the 25 man raiders here want to raid 25, want to be rewarded more so for doing so but don't seem to realise that outside of being an Officer in a 25 man guild then there's no additional stress what so ever. I'm not going to make arguments about raid formats because it's a swings and roundabouts affair, but if your just a raider in a 25 man then your not doing anything a raider in a 10 man is doing.

I wonder how strongly people would feel about doing 25 man's if Blizzard opted to give the Officers of 25 man's extra bonus' and cool stuff but left the rank and file out. Because that's fair right? It's the Officers that work there bollocks off to keep the ball rolling so they should be getting the rewards.

[prwraith]

It boggles my mind that anyone can hate 25 man.


That IS raiding. Large groups of people banding together to complete encounters. 10 mans, are like barely even group content.

The fact of the matter is, regardless of wether or not 25mans are harder (and I believe they are) The logistical hurdles required to field larger raids make them deserving of better loot to begin with.

I hate 10 mans, I find them tediously slow and not very exciting. But first, we lose our dual lockout so we can't do both every week, then we lose the gear ilvl's. And THEN we lost gear drop rate on tokens in 25m. And I'd still rather do 25m, because it's far more epic.

And the whole 25m is to many pixels and lags my computer. Give me a break, swallow your pride and lower your settings. It's unbelievably easy to run wow on ultra these days, and spend almost nothing to do it.

[cFortyfive]

I like how most of the 25 man raiders here want to raid 25, want to be rewarded more so for doing so but don't seem to realise that outside of being an Officer in a 25 man guild then there's no additional stress what so ever.

That game can be played here once again as well.
I like how 10 man raiders don't know that as an officer having stuff to give to your raiders is huge and is actually alleviating a lot of "stress".

[prwraith]

I like how most of the 25 man raiders here want to raid 25, want to be rewarded more so for doing so but don't seem to realise that outside of being an Officer in a 25 man guild then there's no additional stress what so ever. I'm not going to make arguments about raid formats because it's a swings and roundabouts affair, but if your just a raider in a 25 man then your not doing anything a raider in a 10 man is doing.

I wonder how strongly people would feel about doing 25 man's if Blizzard opted to give the Officers of 25 man's extra bonus' and cool stuff but left the rank and file out. Because that's fair right? It's the Officers that work there bollocks off to keep the ball rolling so they should be getting the rewards.

In an actual 25m anyone who isn't constantly theorycrafting, farming/contributing mats, and recruiting is dead weight and is removed. Or was in my 25 man.

[Syio]

Thank you for your reply, Kaiarra.

For a start, you've said yourself that you're in an awkward timezone on the oceanic servers which have a limited community at the best of times.

As I see it you have 3 options:
1. You find a 25m guild that happens to fit around the times you wish to raid, and you join them however much you have to pay to xfer/faction change.
2. You make your own 25m guild that fits around the times you can raid.
3. You accept that you aren't prepared to put the effort required to raid 25m and either lower your expectations (raid 10m), don't raid at all, or yes... you quit.

There's always a lot of people saying they want to run 25-mans but almost none of them are prepared to try an run their own 25-man guild.

I agree with all points, though would like to elaborate on (2). Because 25mans are so unfashionable these days, to start one from scratch makes it extremely challenging. Those who do want to join a 25-man guild are far more likely to seek one with history. Many raiders--now having gotten used to or raised on 10man raiding--find it absurd to put up with some things 25mans have (more organisation/ rules/ etc) so are unlikely to stay. And because 25mans are such logistical nightmares (I've run some myself), it's pretty hard to run when you're holding a full-time job (as most people raiding at my time do). This is a problem Blizzard acknowledges; that there aren't many new 25man guilds forming any longer.

If 25m once again gave better loot that 10m people would have zero issues getting into 25m guilds as 10m guilds would be basically nonexistent. I was in a 25m guild since the start of TBC, not because I liked 25m but because that's where the loot had always been, and as such where all the raiders were. Even in WotLK 10m raid guilds pretty much didn't exist - 10m was just something a small group from your 25m guild would do on the nights you didn't raid 25s.

People wouldn't really have an option at all, if you wanted to raid you would raid 25m or nothing; we'd be back to 10-man raids just being something you did on the off-nights with guys from your 25m raids (plus it'd have to be alt run 10m now with the shared lockouts).

I see the loot issue before as almost the exact thing as the logistical one now.

Past: 25s had better loot. 10s were niche.
Present: 10s are easier to organise. 25s are niche.

It currently does not feel like a choice at all. I've been in 10man guilds and it's certainly not because I liked 10s, but because I couldn't find any suiting 25s to join. Quitting my job to join a guild that raids 2 or 3 hours earlier is certainly not viable. I'm not sure if forking out USD300+ to server and faction transfer every raiding toon I have is any more appealing.

That said, because it does not feel like a choice now (as in the past), I'm not proposing "KILL ZEH EVIL TENZ". I just want neither format so skewed.

[happyzod]

Fact is that the majority prefer 10 man. There's less drama and more raiding going on. Will there be disenfranchised 25 man raiders? Sure, but there were disenfranchised 40 man raiders when BC came out as well.

[brunnor]

I like how most of the 25 man raiders here want to raid 25, want to be rewarded more so for doing so but don't seem to realise that outside of being an Officer in a 25 man guild then there's no additional stress what so ever. I'm not going to make arguments about raid formats because it's a swings and roundabouts affair, but if your just a raider in a 25 man then your not doing anything a raider in a 10 man is doing.

I wonder how strongly people would feel about doing 25 man's if Blizzard opted to give the Officers of 25 man's extra bonus' and cool stuff but left the rank and file out. Because that's fair right? It's the Officers that work there bollocks off to keep the ball rolling so they should be getting the rewards.

As a 25man Raid/Guild leader, the only thing I want for my added effort is my raiders to be rewarded more so that they keep showing up and playing well. Along with that making it easier to recruit by being able to offer more to them. I personally don't want anything. I think any GM/Officer of any middle of the road 25man guild will say the same. We make tons of sacrifice for our raiders/guild, but we know that going in. Happy raiders/recruits makes for a happy GM/Officer.

[Deleted]

the solution to this ongoing long term issue is not finding the best format but just sticking to one!
If you look at the history of WoW raiding you can see constant changes to fundamental mechanics that may or may not had a possitive effect on the game

People who liked 40man format left in disgust after TBC changes.
People who liked one 25man format left in disgust after WotLK changes.
People who liked seperate rewards left in disgust after Cata changes.
People will once agian leave in disgust after this change.

No matter which way they will be losing out customers because they keep changing one format to another just to appease the new group that may or may not outnumber the old one that they used to catter to.

IMHO they should make a huge incentive to normalize all currently existing raids into one universal 15man format and stick with it till WoW decline.

Whichever direction they will make will cause losts on one front or another so they could very well make one last choice and leave it set in stone.

[Syio]

As a 25man Raid/Guild leader, the only thing I want for my added effort is my raiders to be rewarded more so that they keep showing up and playing well. Along with that making it easier to recruit by being able to offer more to them. I personally don't want anything. I think any GM/Officer of any middle of the road 25man guild will say the same. We make tons of sacrifice for our raiders/guild, but we know that going in. Happy raiders/recruits makes for a happy GM/Officer.

You're a fellow leader I respect, goodsir. /salute

[Djaye]

tbh, splitting the achievements would be a great start. Also realm first achievements.

Also, server merges would be great, its hard to keep a 25man guild active on dying servers. It forces you into 10mans most of all reasons imo.

truth betold, everyone in my 25man team would be more then happy with seperate achies and realm firsts again. no gear drop differences needed. just the recognition that it was accomplished in a 25man group as apposed to a 10man.
this is a nice change, but i dont think will impact the amount of 25man raiders unfortunately.

that being said, i really hope cross realm raiding will be the new feature GC elluded at. will make low pop servers more raid friendly, and allow larger guilds better access to filling out those 25mans

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The problem with the whole fucking drama fest is the people playing it (majority that is), people are so damned intent on trying to put 10man and 25man raiding in the same "race" or ranking system. Yes there should be something done to help make 25man more attractive but loot isn't gonna change a damn thing, what needs to happen is this:

-Seperate achievement titles and realm firsts. (once you get 25 or 10man achi the other becomes unavailable to stop achievement hunters feeling the need to do both)
-Bring back guild cauldrons, it's a huuuge drag for guilds that support their raiders with flasks when we have to craft induvidual flasks for everyone.
-10man drops 3 pieces of gear per boss right? 25man drops 6. That means 10man gets more gear per player than 25man, should be other way around. Either making 25man drop 7 pieces of loot or 10man 2.
-Most importaintly, blizzard themselves need to emphasise that 10man and 25man isn't the same difficulty. They're trying extremely hard to make the two "equal" in theory and numbers but there's unforseen things that a 10man can / can't mange and same with 25man. If blizzard themselves started to push out more "news" about fastest 10man kills, fastest 25man kills and so on then people would start seeing differances. Blizzard should have a talk with the guys at wowprogress.com and worldoflogs.com and other wow fansites and work towards a complete seperation between 10 and 25. Wowprogress is already doing this very good with the sorting of guilds by region, raid size, language, faction and so on. Same with worldoflogs, you can search for top "performance" for each fight in each difficulty (LFR, NORMAL, HEROIC, all with 10/25 seperation).

TL;DR
Blizzard is feeding the communitys "frantic" need to put 10 and 25 in the same ranks, make seperate achievements and titels for the two and make sure to comunicate with the community that 10 and 25 shouldn't be compared.

[happyzod]

As a 25man Raid/Guild leader, the only thing I want for my added effort is my raiders to be rewarded more so that they keep showing up and playing well. Along with that making it easier to recruit by being able to offer more to them. I personally don't want anything. I think any GM/Officer of any middle of the road 25man guild will say the same. We make tons of sacrifice for our raiders/guild, but we know that going in. Happy raiders/recruits makes for a happy GM/Officer.

You're having a difficult time recruiting because people don't want to play 25s. If the rewards are the same, the majority prefer 10s. Large guilds used to have an advantage over small guilds because they had a monopoly on the loot. Take that away and guess what? People would rather not raid in 25s where the chances of playing with elitist douches is increased.

[prwraith]

You're having a difficult time recruiting because people don't want to play 25s. If the rewards are the same, the majority prefer 10s. Large guilds used to have an advantage over small guilds because they had a monopoly on the loot. Take that away and guess what? People would rather not raid in 25s where the chances of playing with elitist douches is increased.

If Elitism bothers you, you were probably in the wrong guild. I prefer it to be perfectly honest. Elitism in every player, means everyone does their research and is prepared for every encounter and eventuality.

We come off negatively because we expect everyone else in our guild to measure up. Nobody likes to carry other peoples weight.

[Raone]

-10man drops 3 pieces of gear per boss right? 25man drops 6. That means 10man gets more gear per player than 25man, should be other way around. Either making 25man drop 7 pieces of loot or 10man 2.

Right now 10m drops 2 items and if there is tier on the boss it's always 1 tier item and 1 regular drop. I believe 25m is always 5. It's equal right now just 25m has better loot waste issues then 10m. In 10m our Paladin/Shaman healer are still using blue shields And were doing heroics. It should be 3 10m, and like 8 25m or something. They need to buff both, 10m is hurting in this regard.