[Megathread] DotA 2

[PizzaSHARK]

I've never actually dared attempt deny another player. Feels like the sort of thing they'd get irrationally pissed about.

People get pissed about everything. Irrational being the key word

[PizzaSHARK]

Why not? I don't understand ze scenario. Which is also why I will never attempt to deny anyone out of fear

Well, gale wouldn't do enough damage on the last tick to kill them so they'd be dying unnecessarily

[Kuntantee]

What number? The bash?

Yes.

/10chars

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 02:43 PM ----------

Why not? I don't understand ze scenario. Which is also why I will never attempt to deny anyone out of fear

check HP, check debuff. If hp is less than 70 or smt and buff duration is ~50% than deny. I don't do this tho, I generally deny directly.

[Deleted]

Yes..

What number, the exact duration or what?

[Kuntantee]

What number, the exact duration or what?

The mini-bash duration in MKB which is 0.001 sec. I am not really sure, just a good guess.

[Deleted]

It was like that in the beginning during dota 1, at some point it changed and was documented somewhere.

@Kuntantee- I know you said ignore but- that mini .01 second stun... can happen a lot in succession while bash's internal CD runs its course, its also goes through BKB (think all bash's do).

Was thinking of a troll... troll build. Going Defusal/manta/ instead of madness(Helm of Dominator)/Shadow blade. Would be expensive so if your not doing well but your teams are fairly even should make for a great late game build.. though once you get defusal/manta... there should be no escaping you.

I thought it was crystal clear what number i was talking about in post. Anyway, the mini-bash duration in MKB which is 0.001 sec. I am not really sure, just a good guess.

No it's actually very unclear because the only numbers I see is "dota 1" and ".01 second stun" and I see no reason why ".01 second stun" would be there because of "engine limitations"

The stun is, in fact, 0.01 seconds long.

[Kuntantee]

No it's actually very unclear because the only numbers I see is "dota 1" and ".01 second stun" and I see no reason why ".01 second stun" would be there because of "engine limitations"

The stun is, in fact, 0.01 seconds long.

first the post you quoted first is not mine second i removed crystal clear part to not tount you last i am writing on mobile sory for shitty punctuation also if you check prev post of mine you d see i alrdy stated 0.01value i have few theories about why but too lazy to write on mobile

[Deleted]

first the post you quoted first is not mine second i removed crystal clear part to not tount you last i am writing on mobile sory for shitty punctuation also if you check prev post of mine you d see i alrdy stated 0.01value i have few theories about why but too lazy to write on mobile

I know I didn't quote you. I quoted the post you were replying to.

Loved troll since his initial debut in Dota. I just wish they hadn't changed his passive aura, the whole stacking thing seems like it should belong to beast master like it did in the past. Also in his video debut for Dota2 the commentator says that Basher doesn't stack (expected), doesn't say anything about the upgraded version though- prob going to say it doesn't work. With that said though... why isn't MKB part of his core? BKB is and helm of dominator is (though I'd say MoM is a better option to really stack the AS). Given that the main concept of troll is to perma-bash, shouldn't MKB be core?

I don't see the relation between concept of perma-bash and MKB. MKB bashes for like 0.1(just checked wiki says 0.01) sec or smt and I think that was there because of engine limitations of WC3. Since DotA2 is direct copy, they copied it as well. MKB is a raw damage item with slight IAS.

edit
ignore this post.

It was like that in the beginning during dota 1, at some point it changed and was documented somewhere.

@Kuntantee- I know you said ignore but- that mini .01 second stun... can happen a lot in succession while bash's internal CD runs its course, its also goes through BKB (think all bash's do).

Was thinking of a troll... troll build. Going Defusal/manta/ instead of madness(Helm of Dominator)/Shadow blade. Would be expensive so if your not doing well but your teams are fairly even should make for a great late game build.. though once you get defusal/manta... there should be no escaping you.

@Ichy Perma-Bash build should involve MKB, if it can be afforded, however, that's because of true strike not ultra mini-bash. If you ignore it's damage(~100dmg I guess) that mini-bash brings nothing but ability to cancel tp or other channeling spells. It's good since even raw damage + true strike of MKB worths the money and you get it too but I don't think you can consider it as a real bash. Enemy won't even feel they lose control of their character.

While I may be wrong, I believe that number is there because of engine limitations.

Here's most of the conversation if you were interested.

[Sarevokcz]

No it's actually very unclear because the only numbers I see is "dota 1" and ".01 second stun" and I see no reason why ".01 second stun" would be there because of "engine limitations"

The stun is, in fact, 0.01 seconds long.

Imo either the True Strike part of mkb either needed to simulate interupt to channels and casts, but w3 engine didnt have one, so the miniministun simulated "interrupt" OR the piercing through evasion part wasnt doable in w3 engine with the exception of some sort of bash. Or both together. Its ridiculous when you open dota in mapeditor and see how basically everything is derived from existing w3 spells and abilities.

Must have been butload of work to make some stuff work with the toolset they got in w3. I think QoP scream was based on Fan of Knives which was easy enough, since they work the same way (and a reason why scream has zero cast animation, as FoK didnt have either), but for example Linas stun I think? had to simulate invisible neutral NPC at the location and that NPC casting PBAoE stun, because the engine didnt allow to cast AoE stun like that.

[Deleted]

Imo either the True Strike part of mkb either needed to simulate interupt to channels and casts, but w3 engine didnt have one, so the miniministun simulated "interrupt" OR the piercing through evasion part wasnt doable in w3 engine with the exception of some sort of bash. Or both together. Its ridiculous when you open dota in mapeditor and see how basically everything is derived from existing w3 spells and abilities.

Must have been butload of work to make some stuff work with the toolset they got in w3. I think QoP scream was based on Fan of Knives which was easy enough, since they work the same way (and a reason why scream has zero cast animation, as FoK didnt have either), but for example Linas stun I think? had to simulate invisible neutral NPC at the location and that NPC casting PBAoE stun, because the engine didnt allow to cast AoE stun like that.

MKB's true strike is a 100% chance critical strike for 100% damage with 'No Miss' ticked last time I checked.

[Sarevokcz]

MKB's true strike is a 100% chance critical strike for 100% damage with 'No Miss' ticked last time I checked.

and interrupts casts and channels.

the point is, it wasnt easy to make it work in w3 engine and for whatever reason there is a ministun on proc even tho it wouldnt need one in dota 2. Its the same reason why Lich ulti has same ministun (that goes through bkb even i think) on the initial cast - w3 engine limitations.

[Finear]

Must have been butload of work to make some stuff work with the toolset they got in w3. I think QoP scream was based on Fan of Knives which was easy enough, since they work the same way (and a reason why scream has zero cast animation, as FoK didnt have either), but for example Linas stun I think? had to simulate invisible neutral NPC at the location and that NPC casting PBAoE stun, because the engine didnt allow to cast AoE stun like that.

a lots of stuff is based on fan of knives, e.g. thread switching
this actually allowed melee heroes to pull neutral camps at night without physically attacking them


all bash effects are crit afaik

[cudomix]

Mountain king in ladder play has bash as one of his skills, it has been long time since I did anything with war3 editor but I remember it has funky interaction with something. Lina's Light Strike Array is Blood Mage Flame strike combined with Tauren chieftain's war stomp (war stomp is casted by invisible, invulnerable 0 collision unit at it's center), same as Leshrac's Split earth (funny enough, delay from Flame strike ended up making both spells balanced, because they require some skill for proper aiming, one of many examples of "It is not a bug, it is a feature" we all love in games).

[Ichy]

Love the mechanics talk... but I miss the days of dual basher NS or basher/mom troll. those days were fun as hell. Shame they stopped the item stacking.

[cudomix]

Basher on Troll was unable to change "on the fly" back then, so you'd go melee form, pick up basher and switch back, so you'd end with melee basher on ranged hero with insane attack speed, it was ultimate troll build (pun intended:P).

[Kuntantee]

I know I didn't quote you. I quoted the post you were replying to.

Well, to me it's very clear I am talking about mini-bash time if you consider whole convo.

I don't see the relation between concept of perma-bash and MKB. MKB bashes for like 0.1(just checked wiki says 0.01) sec or smt and I think that[mini bash time] was there because of engine limitations of WC3. Since DotA2 is direct copy, they copied it as well. MKB is a raw damage item with slight IAS.

edit
ignore this post.

I don't think it requires intense mental power to understand what that pronoun("that") represents.

[Deleted]

Well, to me it's very clear I am talking about mini-bash time if you consider whole convo.



I don't think it requires intense mental power to understand what that pronoun("that") represents.

I could see how the existence of a mini-bash could be due to engine limitations but what does the exact time have to do with it?

[Kuntantee]

I could see how the existence of a mini-bash could be due to engine limitations but what does the exact time have to do with it?

Exact time is relevant because that's how we call it mini bash(it's so small). It's like there to simulate true strike effect, they needed some sort of unique effect and they come up with bash and since they didn't want MKB to have bash they set the time of mini bash as small as possible. That's how I deducted it's there because of engine limitations. The number is so small that that mini bash almost have no effect on game.

From programming POV. You can't change how hit(miss or sucess)is checked because it's hard coded. What I mean? If you make MKB's damage regular type then it can not persist through miss-success but it seems(totally deducted) unique effects such as bash can persist through evasion mechanic. It's just a precedence matter. If you check bash's success before evasion mechanic on code that means it persist through evasion. Anyway, it's pure speculation deducted from the magnitude of bash's length.

[Deleted]

Exact time is relevant because that's how we call it mini bash(it's so small). It's like there to simulate true strike effect, they needed some sort of unique effect and they come up with bash and since they didn't want MKB to have bash they set the time of mini bash as small as possible. That's how I deducted it's there because of engine limitations. The number is so small that that mini bash almost have no effect on game.

But the true strike effect isn't tied to the bash, it's tied to a critical strike-based mechanic. The only thing I could see being possibly reliant on the bash is the bonus damage.

[Finear]

True Strike is a Critical Strike based ability with a 100% chance to land a critical strike, meaning that it will trigger on every attack against a valid target, and an option called "Data - Never Miss" set to True, which is what makes you ignore miss chances. The critical strike multiplier is 0, which makes you deal 100% of your damage on every attack without showing the red pop-up number which normally would be shown when you land a critical strike.

Just as any other critical strike ability this is a buff placer on ranged heroes on the attacks where it triggers, in this case on all attacks since there's a 100% chance for the ability to trigger.

http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81057
sorry i cant find link to dota allstars archive to provide more data

i think the only problem with true strike coding was critical strikes and orbs interaction