What are your opinions on mage direction as of patch 5.2 on the PTR

[zomgDPS]

..merely pointing out that denying that we are currently more powerful than we should be...is a little pointless

I follow mage commentary pretty closely. I would be interested in getting some indication/quotes/links/anything from you with respect to anyone denying anything.

My core point is, quite simply, that Arcane (as well as a host of talents that are directly linked to its performance) are changing in too large a manner to make any talk of the overpoweredness of Arcane pre-5.2 relevant.
Basically, whether or not Arcane was OP in the past is not relevant given the magnitude of changes in 5.2.


Its like someone coming in here and saying "Oh yea you remember when arcane was totally OP in patch 3.1?? OH man that was bad". I'd be like "Yea.. sure, but that has nothing to do with the directions of mages in 5.2" which is what we are discussing now.

To me, anyone who is dredging up the irrelevant past of Arcane especially concerning how "OP it is" is not doing so out of any constructive intention. They are doing it to elicit emotional responses from the readers and to derail the conversation (be it consciously or not) into the territory of "rabble-rabble-nerf-to-ground" which is the only conclusive destination such conversations can have (especially given the lack of actual hard data or analysis, since at best, he had nothing more than his isolated story).


But that is all I will discuss on this topic.
This thread isn't about "oh man arcane was soo OP, lets revel in its OP past" and neither is this thread about me pointing out how irrelevant that is.

[Elegiac]

On the whole "It's weird how mages want themselves nerfed" angle, I thought this conversation topic was merely in response to saying "Mages aren't overpowered but affliction are even if we do more damage", rather than because anyone wants their damage reduced
Like, nobody is saying "boy I really hope GC nerfs us soon" but we're pointing out that it is inevitable, because Arcane is head, shoulders and wrists above every other DPS class in ideal conditions (and pretty high up in unideal ones)

This is mainly because of unintended interaction with scorch and deviation from the rotation Blizzard intended, so we are seeing our rotation remodeled rather than being nerfed to the ground
Nobody is arguing that Arcane should be destroyed so that the other two specs should catch up, merely pointing out that denying that we are currently more powerful than we should be (because Blizzard balanced around a lower DPS rotation than the one we discovered) is a little pointless

To hell with DPS. I would be ok with being slightly-above the middle of the pack as long as all our specs had decent and fun rotations.

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 06:22 AM ----------

On topic about arcane changes. IMO they should either:
a) make AB spam more rewarding (somewhat like cata arcane);
b) make Arcane barrage more appealing to cast. It can't hit harder (its already a hard hitter) but it could give an additional effect - casting arcane barrage increases your casting speed by x% per y secs.

As for reworking mana adept, I doubt it will happen mid expansion cause arcane mages design is a healer-like design (and this probably won't change till next expansion).

The latter doesn't solve the problem of Mana Adept being a poorly implemented mechanic if the goal is actually mana management. As I said, there are a number of ways to create burn phases without making Arcane Blast excessively overpowered, namely by leveraging Arcane Power in some way.

[Imnick]

I follow mage commentary pretty closely. I would be interested in getting some indication/quotes/links/anything from you with respect to anyone denying anything.

Sure thing!

They can't be more wrong about Arcane. It is far from overpowered, just because it's among the top 5 specs doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Regarding Affli they're right though.

"Arcane mages aren't doing more damage than they should, Affliction should be nerfed though"

I am not trying to say that this is a relevant part of the discussion, I agree with you that 5.2 changes are more than enough to ensure that Arcane's power on Live is fairly irrelevant, I was just responding to your claim that Mages are somehow strange in their desire to see their own specs nerfed.
That was not what was happening in this thread, that was a response to someone making an outlandish claim about balance.

[jtmzac]

I think you misinterpreted how I feel about arcane.

I'm not saying "omg its op nerf it to the ground". I think it could use a light reduction to its single target damage and some increased damage while moving.

More than anything I would just like to see the mage specs have a closer single target dps regardless of wether its through buffs or nerfs. I just don't like seeing people penalised for playing spec other than arcane because they do less dps.

I'm aware rop scorch weaving produces higher dps. It just added to my surprise of how good the numbers I was getting with the invocation/haste build were.

I'm not doing anything wrong as frost as I rank fairly well when I get some good rng and don't screw up so I'm comfortable saying my results with arcane are simply due to the spec and not me playing frost badly.

I do actually read every post here in the mage section of the forums so I have a rough idea of the changes happening to arcane. A summary somewhere would be nice as things keep changing and are spread all over the place.

The main changes to arcane I can think of are the charge reduction to 4 stacks and the increased mana consumption of scorch. The invocation nerf which is really a nerf to every spec since both frost and fire use it. That's all I can think of right now.

[BaP]

Its PTR lol....get over it!!!

[zomgDPS]

Bah.. Voyager has always been a little nubly where statements like that are concerned. I wouldn't pay too much heed to what he says. All that vodka kind of makes him not really care much.


That being said, I should have perhaps embedded my other statement in better context. I wasn't necessarily saying that "nerf mage spec X because I play Y" is necessarily whats directly happening in this thread. What I was eluding to was that the direction of the discussion (had I not intervened) could have easily ended up with such statements being made.
I qualified that prediction with my statement about a phenomena that I have observed throughout the lifetime of the game.

Ever since vanilla WoW, Mages as a class have been the most "spec-ist". This is just something I have observed and I think anyone who has been with this class for long enough can attest to this fact too.
And even if you don't see it, just take a look at the official mage forums and compare them to the official class forums of any other class. You will find an overwhelming number of "nerf mage spec X because I play spec Y" posts and sentiments within the mage community.


I have always found this phenomena interesting.

[Deleted]

Now now, settle down. Lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

In an effort to snip the "rabble-rabble-grab-pitchforks-nerf-arcane-TO THE GROUND!!" crowd in the bud, lets not forget that the current version of Arcane on live that is producing 'crazy' numbers won't be possible anymore purely due to the scorch change(s).


Arcane, admittedly, was not designed to be at 6 stack for as long as it is in live (both for RoP and for Invoc - though admittedly, RoP+scorch+stack 'camping' is the main offender here). The crazy high numbers you are seeing are, in part, due to this 'camping' gameplay, which will not exist anymore in 5.2

So before we go ahead and start up a political campaign to get Arcane nerfed to the ground. Lets just keep in mind that the simple fact that scorch camping is 'broken' means that Arcane should naturally come into line in the few situations where it may be an outlier



As an interesting side point, the mage class is the ONLY class in WoW whose community actively seeks to nerf itself. I have been a warlock almost as long as I have been a mage and have never come across a warlock wanting to nerf one of his specs in order to get a 'leg-up' on his preferred spec. In fact, I have rarely ever seen a spec of any class actively seek and lobby to nerf another spec of the same class. I never figured out what it was about mages that allowed for this phenomena.

Mages really do take "spec-ism" to a whole new level.

Whilst we won't be able to pull the exact numbers we have right now due to changes; the numbers with the Haste/Invo build currently on the 5.2 PTR are only going to be ~4.5% what the CURRENT Haste/Invo build builds, which in all honesty isn't that far behind RoP. Crazy numbers will probably will be seen, but we will wait for 5.2.

I'm not actually on a campaign to get Arcane nerfed - for me it's by far the most enjoyable of the 3 specs due to haste build making it feel faster (Fire just feels slow for me, that's all, and Frost is just meh).
I am, however, one of those people who is very competitive. If/when I'm topping the meters, I want it to be because I'm a good player who just plays better than others; rather than playing an OP class which is boosting me there and making it easier. I don't want Arcane 'nerfed to the ground' at all; but I wouldn't mind a more level playing field. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that my guild is currently having trouble recruiting a 'decent' mage to play alongside so I'm not getting class compeition, I don't know. But as things stand I'd still like things to be a little harder.

If people are constantly happy with a class/spec being OP it means one of two things - they play FotM and FotM only or they don't have a decent enough drive to make them want to improve - whether that drive is from class competition or from other classes competing or even general laziness 'cos they're already topping meters.

^ I realise that final comment is a) rather judgemental and b) somewhat elitist, but it's only my opinion. I apologise if I (unintentionally) offend anyone by saying that.

[jtmzac]

Ever since vanilla WoW, Mages as a class have been the most "spec-ist". This is just something I have observed and I think anyone who has been with this class for long enough can attest to this fact too.
And even if you don't see it, just take a look at the official mage forums and compare them to the official class forums of any other class. You will find an overwhelming number of "nerf mage spec X because I play spec Y" posts and sentiments within the mage community.


I have always found this phenomena interesting.

I've always thought its simply the problem associated with having three dps specs. I firmly believe we should have one of the specs converted to a healing spec to give mages more utility and to make balancing the dps specs a little easier.

[Deleted]

I've always thought its simply the problem associated with having three dps specs. I firmly believe we should have one of the specs converted to a healing spec to give mages more utility and to make balancing the dps specs a little easier.

Warlocks have 3 DPS specs and zomg pointed out he hasn't noticed the same with them.

[jtmzac]

Warlocks have 3 DPS specs and zomg pointed out he hasn't noticed the same with them.

Aren't there problems with how good affliction is right now?

I just think classes with three dps specs are a bad idea in any case. I play a mage because I like mages not because it has three dps specs and I've always felt restricted by not having the choice to play a healer or tank without playing another class.

[Deleted]

Aren't there problems with how good affliction is right now?

I just think classes with three dps specs are a bad idea in any case. I play a mage because I like mages not because it has three dps specs and I've always felt restricted by not having the choice to play a healer or tank without playing another class.

There aren't problems with 'locks complaining about Affliction and how good it is right now - and I think this is zomg's point - no matter which Mage spec is top, people will always QQ because their preferred spec isn't top.

[zomgDPS]

If people are constantly happy with a class/spec being OP it means one of two things - they play FotM and FotM only or they don't have a decent enough drive to make them want to improve

I think quite a few of the regulars on these forums are 'progression' players like yourself (I know I am), where we value not only our performance, but our mastery over the class and the game as something high on our list of 'things to value'.

That being said, thankfully (at least in my case), I have the pleasure to raid/ChallengeMode/rBGs/Arena with a guild and a set of players who are perhaps even better informed about the state of the game than I am. Being in a guild that values actual knowledge of the game to the point where even my rogue playing guildy knows pretty detailed information about the mechanics of Arcane (at least to the extent to know if its just FoTM or something else), really helps out. Thankfully, I don't suffer from the issues that you describe. Perhaps you can find a better set of guildies? Thats my only suggestion right now, I guess.
I play with some of the smartest players I have ever met in a video game. These guys are the kinds of people that really shock you with how good they are (whilst simultaneously making you lol at some of the more public 'experts' out there). Too bad our GM has a lock on us posting videos and strats and other 'publicity' things that other 'big progression guilds' put out there. But I'm sure if you guys saw some of my guildies you would prob be quite jealous.

The people you play WoW with can fundamentally change the experience.

I've always thought its simply the problem associated with having three dps specs. I firmly believe we should have one of the specs converted to a healing spec to give mages more utility and to make balancing the dps specs a little easier.

I'm not sure. Warlocks (another class I am very familiar with) are also a pure class, and while the phenomena does exist in that community too, it is at a much MUCH lesser extent then it is for mages.

I mean ffs, the mage MVP is considered the single most bias mage (with a massive pro-Frost bias). He has demonstrated just how bias he can be (even at the expense of other specs) and it is, in part, his bias that actually brought us to the point where we are at now. The point in time where we are scrambling mid-expansion to fix the class with hotfixes and massive mechanics overhauls, since it is so fundamentally broken.

Such things are totally unheard of for any other class.

[jtmzac]

There aren't problems with 'locks complaining about Affliction and how good it is right now - and I think this is zomg's point - no matter which Mage spec is top, people will always QQ because their preferred spec isn't top.

Affliction isn't the top dps spec which changes how people look at it. Affliction was also the worst pve warlock spec before mop and people are probably happy its having its time in the spotlight. Arcane on the other hand was quite good before mop and it only got stronger which I think is making the complaining worse.

Also don't forget warlocks got quite the overhaul with mop while the mage changes weren't exactly inspired.

[Deleted]

-snip

I completely agree with what you're saying; but I'm not saying that my guildies are the problem

To be honest, a lot of my guildies are very good players and I respect them a great deal for their ability to play their respective classes to their fullest potential. I've also had the great fortune of raiding with both ex-hardcore and current hardcore players from various top guilds (Top 10 in World).
The current problem I (and my guild) have is that we recently merged into a 25-man team (3 10 man guilds merging together to form a core), and as such our progression this tier is slightly behind other guilds and so we're losing out on good recruits because we've only been raiding as a group since late-November. This has seemingly affected Mage recruits more than any other class. We had 3 raiding Mages when we started out but after Fire got nerfed the other 2 lost interest and as such I'm now the sole remaining Mage. I then got my main banned which really didn't help matters at all as we got quite desperate. Oh well.

Personally, my game knowledge is probably "average"; despite only playing the game since 4.2 I've got a good idea of how most classes and specs work (from a DPS PoV, anyway. Tanking doesn't interest me and Healing is something I'm currently learning) and I can, to an extent, remember the rough rotations for a lot of class/spec combos, and keep myself up-to-date with how they perform and so forth. I do this because I am extremely competitive by nature and probably take DPS-whoring to another level if it means I can top the meters.
It's a bad habit which I'm slowly kicking but if content is on farm you can be 100% sure I'll be working on some method to try and maximise my DPS. To some that might just be good play or good initiative, but far too often I don't see it in a lot of people (not necessarily talking about my guildies here). Hence my comments. More often than not I'm not even content with topping meters - when I do I often go back to logs and try and find out what I did wrong (because, let's face it, getting a perfect rotation in during a fight is very unlikey) and where I perhaps could have squeezed out more DPS.

Affliction isn't the top dps spec which changes how people look at it. Affliction was also the worst pve warlock spec before mop and people are probably happy its having its time in the spotlight. Arcane on the other hand was quite good before mop and it only got stronger which I think is making the complaining worse.

Also don't forget warlocks got quite the overhaul with mop while the mage changes weren't exactly inspired.

Arcane aside (as we can probably treat Arcane as an anomaly in the current data set), Affliction is top, and by some way as well.

Affliction also wasn't the worst PvE spec pre-MoP; I have a Warlock in my guild who almost exclusively raids Affliction, even during Firelands where Demo was king of all and later in Dragon Soul where the same happened. He has no trouble competing on meters and probably never will have.

[spaace]

Affliction IS the top dps spec.. by a pretty big gap too..
AND, they were the best dps spec during cata. and most of wrath.


Arcane was terrible, except for ICC during wrath.



You play frost, and might not have a decent affliction warlock in the raid.. so you're not used to mind blowing dps?

[Elegiac]

I've always thought its simply the problem associated with having three dps specs. I firmly believe we should have one of the specs converted to a healing spec to give mages more utility and to make balancing the dps specs a little easier.

No, thank you.

[Deleted]

Warlocks have 3 DPS specs and zomg pointed out he hasn't noticed the same with them.

What blizzard say is "We see more Arcane and Frost mages, but a lot of Fire too". That's after every single question or QQ of what they've done to Fire. I mean seriously, Warlocks always have 3 viable specs, or , OK, almost always. But it's been like that for them since the start of Cata. Not to mention that we didn't have Frost as PVE spec AT ALL.
The problem is that blizz care only for the Top Tier HC raiding guilds and watch live performances of players like Blatty or some of the top 15 guilds in the world, that's ofc when it comes to Spec "OP" damage. For every Lootwise thing they care about the LFR "strangers" and those of their kind, aka non-heroic/average raiders.. I mean seriously how many players could execute their rotation like Blatty? OR How many players are in the top 15 guilds anyway? How many mages?
They don't give a sh*t about the average players and keep nerfing specs, cuz you know... it's too OP.. I'm sure that an average raider would never top a fight the way Blatty topped it, or not top it at all. So lets be honest, they nerfed Fire to the ground and they still claim there are "a lot fire mages". Well, how about NO! For heroic progress raiding you need to play of what's the best DPS, not what you 100% LOVE to. For example - my favourite spec is Fire but I'm now forced to play Arcane cuz of slightly ridiculosly better dps. So I'll stay Arcane until nerf....

[jtmzac]

Arcane aside (as we can probably treat Arcane as an anomaly in the current data set), Affliction is top, and by some way as well.

Affliction also wasn't the worst PvE spec pre-MoP; I have a Warlock in my guild who almost exclusively raids Affliction, even during Firelands where Demo was king of all and later in Dragon Soul where the same happened. He has no trouble competing on meters and probably never will have.

There's no doubt that you can still top meters with a spec that isn't the best. I raid with a warlock who plays destruction and while myself as frost or our assassination rogue usually top the meters he has his fights and is always close behind us.

I suppose at heart we all just like doing big numbers and feel a bit cheated that arcane is currently a fair way ahead of the other specs. We'll just have to wait and see what comes out of the ptr. Then we can start compaining all over again.

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 02:32 AM ----------

No, thank you.

May I ask why? You have been one of the most vocal people in wanting major overhauls to mages and it seems a bit strange that you're opposed to the idea.

[Deleted]

Hope fire makes a comeback, which it will i guess with higher ilvl.
Imo, for fire they should let you have 2 stacks of pyro at a time, so it doesn't get wasted if you crit twice before using your first pyro.
Also help lessen the rng by adding a 'free pyro if no crit for x amount of casts' Like a stacking buff, which gains a stack everytime you use fireball, if it reaches 10, boom free pyro.

For arcane, they could add a DoT to abarr. Kind of like that priest dot, they use with 3 stacks of shadow orbs (if it still exists since cata).
This would stop people from 6stack camping.

Frost, haven't played in pve much but indeed give water jet and more FoF.

Also make scorch an all round good thing, with a different name even.
Fire: it already works fine.
Frost: it could be similar to fire (just a weak version of frostbolt, usable while moving)
Arcane: a weak version of AB that will refresh AB stacks or the DoT i mentioned from ABarr.

[jtmzac]

Affliction IS the top dps spec.. by a pretty big gap too..
AND, they were the best dps spec during cata. and most of wrath.

Arcane was terrible, except for ICC during wrath.

You play frost, and might not have a decent affliction warlock in the raid.. so you're not used to mind blowing dps?

I'm relatively new to wow only having started in 4.3 and back then affliction seemed to be the worst of the warlock specs and I played arcane and quite comfortably topped meters.

Currently on live our warlock plays destruction and we're terribly overgeared for where we are in progression which just ends up hurting our dps (our dps' average ilvl is about 493 and we only just downed heroic elegon). I suppose I've never questioned our dps as I'm just happy to be raiding at all.