[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Promdates]

I've been using Dancing Steel, for the increased damage and the minor parry I gain. The uptime is pretty good, usually 35-50%. I did check one a log of Treckie from Method, on 25H kills. Colossus numbers don't look that hot to me.

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok: 40.6% uptime, 240k absorb
Blade Lord Ta'yak: 17.5% uptime, 192k absorb
Garalon: 9.3% uptime, 328k absorb
Wind Lord Mel'Jarak: 7% uptime, 340k absorb
Amber-Shaper Un'Sok: 13.7% uptime, 312k absorb
Grand Empress Shek'zeer: 25% uptime, 560k absorb

Feng the Accursed: 14.6% uptime, 272k absorb
Gara'jal the Spiritbinder: 15.7% uptime, 128k absorb
Spirit Kings: 35.3% uptime, 368k absorb
Elegon: 33.2% uptime, 208k absorb
Will of the Emperor: 5.8% uptime, 544k absorb

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I've been using Dancing Steel, for the increased damage and the minor parry I gain. The uptime is pretty good, usually 35-50%. I did check one a log of Treckie from Method, on 25H kills. Colossus numbers don't look that hot to me.

If enough tanks use DPS enchants, maybe they'll buff the tank ones!

(Yes, I'm in a bit of a cynical mood today)

[Promdates]

If enough tanks use DPS enchants, maybe they'll buff the tank ones!

(Yes, I'm in a bit of a cynical mood today)

The other options are a Dodge proc (lol), an unreliable proc enchant for two stats I wouldn't mind, and one that gives a mediocre bubble periodically. In all honestly, Colossus for 25H raiders isn't that impressive. Going back to the previous log that I got those numbers from, the tank took 40,496,002 damage on Wind Lord. Colossus absorbed only 336k of it. 0.008297% of the damage taken was absorbed by Colossus. Yeah, that seems really good.

Across the entire raid log (12 bosses, wipes/kills, and trash) he took 497,233,525 damage. Colossus absorbed 6,604,800 total damage. That's .013283% absorbed. Colossus seems really good for heroic dungeons, and probably even challenge modes. Things that don't hit for that much, letting you absorb more of the damage. For a boss that hits you for 200k, you only absorb .0375% of the damage.

So yeah, I'd rather use an enchant that can pull double duty of dps+parry increase than one that absorbs so little that it's better on trash than a raid boss.

edit: I only showed actual damage taken on Wind Lord. If you take absorbs into account, he took "58,594,464" damage. 0.005734 of the "total" damage was absorbed by Colossus.

[Fhi]

Right. Different question from me. If I am much beyond hit cap and already at expertise capped, what should my blue sockets be? I put in haste + stamina but I am wondering if something else might be better.

[Monolith of Mazes]

If the socket bonus is good, haste stam is fine. If the socket bonus isnt desirable then just go for haste. Or you can just go pure stam. Depends on you feel about your health pool.

Gem Diagram
As you ca see form the diagram, there isn't anything to get from blue aside from hit stam. I guess you could gem hit then change some reforges to haste.

[Fhi]

If the socket bonus is good, haste stam is fine. If the socket bonus isnt desirable then just go for haste. Or you can just go pure stam. Depends on you feel about your health pool.

Gem Diagram
As you ca see form the diagram, there isn't anything to get from blue aside from hit stam. I guess you could gem hit then change some reforges to haste.

Each piece with hit is already reforged to something else, hence why I had to look at replacing gems now. I'm still at very low ilevel (483), so stamina is relatively more useful to me until I can get better gear. Or if.

[Deleted]

The other options are a Dodge proc (lol), an unreliable proc enchant for two stats I wouldn't mind, and one that gives a mediocre bubble periodically. In all honestly, Colossus for 25H raiders isn't that impressive. Going back to the previous log that I got those numbers from, the tank took 40,496,002 damage on Wind Lord. Colossus absorbed only 336k of it. 0.008297% of the damage taken was absorbed by Colossus. Yeah, that seems really good.

Across the entire raid log (12 bosses, wipes/kills, and trash) he took 497,233,525 damage. Colossus absorbed 6,604,800 total damage. That's .013283% absorbed. Colossus seems really good for heroic dungeons, and probably even challenge modes. Things that don't hit for that much, letting you absorb more of the damage. For a boss that hits you for 200k, you only absorb .0375% of the damage.

So yeah, I'd rather use an enchant that can pull double duty of dps+parry increase than one that absorbs so little that it's better on trash than a raid boss.

edit: I only showed actual damage taken on Wind Lord. If you take absorbs into account, he took "58,594,464" damage. 0.005734 of the "total" damage was absorbed by Colossus.

Your error is looking at total damage taken rather than what actually matters: how spiky the damage is. Colossus is the best enchant for damage smoothing, Dancing Steel is the best for DPS and River Song is most likely the best for TDR.

[Deleted]

Your error is looking at total damage taken rather than what actually matters: how spiky the damage is. Colossus is the best enchant for damage smoothing, Dancing Steel is the best for DPS and River Song is most likely the best for TDR.

The biggest error in the whole "damage smoothening" debate, is that people assume that the damage you take throughout an encounter is static. I ask you, please, go check your damage taken on most boss fights, then ask yourself, how much use will that colossus proc actually be?

In a raid environment when you wont drop below 95% life for the most part of the fight, that proc won't do anything. the hots from the healers are already overhealing so that proc is in effect just more overhealing most of the time.

It is the best enchant for "smoothening" ( dont really wanna call it that ) in the same way dodge and parry is the best stats for TDR. You gotta ask your self, what is the real effect in a real raid environment, not on paper. What good is a small absorb if all it does is make the healers dots overheal you instead.

Imo, the term smoothening gets thrown around to much. For anything to be called "smoothening", it needs to reduce a % of damage, not a static amount.


Basically, if I get an absorb for say 10k, and the boss hits me 20k, I reduced 50% of the damage. If the boss instead hits for me for 400k, I only reduced 2.5% of the damage. That is not damage smoothening, that is damage reduction.

[Deleted]

The biggest error in the whole "damage smoothening" debate, is that people assume that the damage you take throughout an encounter is static. I ask you, please, go check your damage taken on most boss fights, then ask yourself, how much use will that colossus proc actually be?

That isn't true at all. The whole point of damage smoothing and a control gearing strategy is to reduce the damage of spikes as much as possible. If you are going to get hit by a 400k attack which would you prefer?

a) a reliable 8k absorb
b) a dodge proc which might not even be up for the spike, if you even end up dodging it at all

Then there's also magic damage to consider.

In a raid environment when you wont drop below 95% life for the most part of the fight, that proc won't do anything. the hots from the healers are already overhealing so that proc is in effect just more overhealing most of the time.

In that situation you should be using a DPS enchant, no questions asked. This will happen a lot more often in a 10-man than a 25-man raid and it also really depends on the strength of your raid group and the number of healers you are using. You either drop a healer or increase your own DPS.

Basically, if I get an absorb for say 10k, and the boss hits me 20k, I reduced 50% of the damage. If the boss instead hits for me for 400k, I only reduced 2.5% of the damage. That is not damage smoothening, that is damage reduction.

I don't think you understand the point of "smoothing damage". Damage reduction during spike damage IS smoothing damage. That's the whole point. Anything that reduces the damage of a large damage spike is inherently smoothing damage. The question is which is preferable, a reliable small absorb or a small increase to a random chance of avoiding the damage completely.

[Sivick]

Does anyone else find prot pally threat to be low compared to the other tanks? This is very frustrating...

[Deleted]

That isn't true at all. The whole point of damage smoothing and a control gearing strategy is to reduce the damage of spikes as much as possible. If you are going to get hit by a 400k attack which would you prefer?

a) a reliable 8k absorb
b) a dodge proc which might not even be up for the spike, if you even end up dodging it at all



Then there's also magic damage to consider.

You misunderstood me, was not comparing it to the dodge proc

More like, saying that neither of them is very attractive. Basically it is my opinion that most of the weapon enchants are quite terribad. For me, DS becomes to most attractive one simply for dps purposes as none of the others really help us in survival.

Also @magic damage. Please, the only figth where that is even relevant is Lei-Shi. On all others that is completely unrelevant.

If a boss does 800k physical damage or 400k physical and 400k magic, you will still absorb the same amount. Some other stats however lose value in magic damage situations, however, my point is still that all weapon enchants are very bad in tanking purposes. None of them are really strong and in my opinion DS is the strongest as I said before for the dps.

In that situation you should be using a DPS enchant, no questions asked. This will happen a lot more often in a 10-man than a 25-man raid and it also really depends on the strength of your raid group and the number of healers you are using. You either drop a healer or increase your own DPS.

The 10 and 25 argument is interesting. Since, DS lose value in 25 man compared to 10 since you will have more vengeance and more dps in the group making the tanks dps a lower % of the total dps. However, colossus also lose value since the damage the tank take is higher.
( As in the previous example, lets say you take 100k damage in 10 and 300k in 25, an 8k absorb is more valuable if you take 100k compared to 300k damage. )

As I raid 10, I can't really comment on how the situation changes in 25 man. The only enchant that really gains value in 25 man is Windsong. ( If that gain is enough to make it better than DS, I do not know, possibly but have not tried it myself ).

I don't think you understand the point of "smoothing damage". Damage reduction during spike damage IS smoothing damage. That's the whole point. Anything that reduces the damage of a large damage spike is inherently smoothing damage. The question is which is preferable, a reliable small absorb or a small increase to a random chance of avoiding the damage completely.

Well as I mentioned earlier, I think neither. I do not argue that avoidance is shit. I am just saying that colossus in a real raid environment is equally bad.
Also, colossus is kinda reliable yes, but still not entirely reliable. Nothing says it will proc exactly when you need it, even though it is quite large change to proc.

In this tier, in my opinion, the stat that does the best damage smoothening, in practice, not on paper, is mastery. This coming from a haste paladin and probably the most vocal haste crusader that has been crusading for haste since mop beta. That being said, I think that the damage done to tanks this tier is not even worth mentioning, which is why, especially in 10's, damage done > damage reduction. Tank damage is just a non-issue.

And the reason why mastery is better than haste in practice is because how the figths are designed. The very same reason why colossus is not good is the same reason why haste wins on paper but not in practice in terms of pure damage smoothening.
And still, the same reason why haste is still better than mastery in practice is the same reason that DS is better than colossus. Damage smoothening doesn't really matter if the damage is not high enough to even worry about.

Actually funny how much colussus works in the same way that haste reduces damage. The difference though, is what makes haste king, is the added dps. If haste gave us 0 dps, but still the same damage reduction it gives now ( for some reason ), mastery would be far better.

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 05:13 AM ----------

Does anyone else find prot pally threat to be low compared to the other tanks? This is very frustrating...

Feels like we are weak on snap AoE threat but extremely strong on single target threat.

[Sivick]

that is the worst part, aoe tanking is our thing... and without the snap aoe threat it's difficult to build up vengeance which gimps us.

[Deleted]

that is the worst part, aoe tanking is our thing... and without the snap aoe threat it's difficult to build up vengeance which gimps us.

I was also wondering how other people are finding paladin threat. I am currently running with a druid. Assuming we both pull at the same time a pack of mobs, I might get threat on 1-3 of them if my Avenger's Shield crits. And as soon as his thrash starts ticking I have no chance of getting any back. That is without misdirection, ToT's or previous vengeance. It isn't a big issue since trash don't really matter, but still is a but annoying seeing so much superior threat.

[Sivick]

I was also wondering how other people are finding paladin threat. I am currently running with a druid. Assuming we both pull at the same time a pack of mobs, I might get threat on 1-3 of them if my Avenger's Shield crits. And as soon as his thrash starts ticking I have no chance of getting any back. That is without misdirection, ToT's or previous vengeance. It isn't a big issue since trash don't really matter, but still is a but annoying seeing so much superior threat.

i'm getting the same problem, and for bosses with lots of adds, like windlord, it becomes a serious issue.

[Deleted]

Yeah that was the only fight I was really annoyed with our threat. While working on it on heroic, we started with me on boss and druid on adds. There was no way I could keep up, even if the only threat he was doing on boss was aoe and dots. We swapped roles so I could get more vengeance for Sacred Shield and mostly Battle Healer and it was ok. But on fights like this or possibly adds on Empress when taking on too much can result in a death inside a gcd, we feel like we are missing something.

[Nillo]

Hmm afaik it's just that paladins scale wayyyyyyyyy too good with vengeance and have a shitty base damage meaning you'll have trouble at the start of a fight.

Just look at what they do with Consecration next patch - significantly increase it's base damage and reduce the scaling by 10%

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 06:32 AM ----------

But on fights like this or possibly adds on Empress when taking on too much can result in a death inside a gcd, we feel like we are missing something.

Empress? Since you're supposed to seperate those adds there shouldn't be a problem with overaggroing anyway o0

[Sivick]

Hmm afaik it's just that paladins scale wayyyyyyyyy too good with vengeance and have a shitty base damage meaning you'll have trouble at the start of a fight.

Just look at what they do with Consecration next patch - significantly increase it's base damage and reduce the scaling by 10%

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 06:32 AM ----------



Empress? Since you're supposed to seperate those adds there shouldn't be a problem with overaggroing anyway o0

i'm perfectly happy to have vengeance be less effective to boost the initial damage of several of my abilities, particularly the aoe ones.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

But on fights like this or possibly adds on Empress when taking on too much can result in a death inside a gcd, we feel like we are missing something.

I hit one of them with AS, the big one with J, the rest follow me through the consecrate I placed with my boss tanking vengeance. I use Holy Avenger as soon as they are near me, which lasts long enough for the first few to peel off me and reduce the damage of the remaining mobs.

[Deleted]

Guys, I currently have the Darkmoon Trinket and the Valor one. I just got DArkmist Vortex (Str + Haste proc) from Lei Shi. I'm thinking about using it instead of the DArkmoon one... Is it the best option or the proc isn't worth it?

[Deleted]

Guys, I currently have the Darkmoon Trinket and the Valor one. I just got DArkmist Vortex (Str + Haste proc) from Lei Shi. I'm thinking about using it instead of the DArkmoon one... Is it the best option or the proc isn't worth it?

You would be far better of with the ghost iron dragonling. My 5 cents.

Though to answer your question, yes imo its worth using Darkmist over the stamina trinkets, you really dont need stamina trinkets in this tier. I would still prefer lei-shin over darkmist. Rather have passive haste and proc str than passive str and proc haste.