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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Listen, I get it. You can't say a single payer system is more expensive because it isn't.

    You can't say it performs more poorly because it doesn't.

    So instead you rail about this crap with dependents and every other thing you think might stick to the wall, but it doesn't change the fact that a single payer system performs better than what we have now.
    You don't get it. You said I was being arbitrary about government's duties. I said I was drawing lines and those that weren't were unrealistic. You're all caught up on the word "dependent" and filled in the rest of the many blanks for me.

    Looking forward to finding out what I really meant in your next post.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    My kind?

    10 char.
    Can't wait until your overlords at dailykos, democratic underground and huffington have a way figured out to somehow blame it all on the republicans, then we can see what your reply is.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I swear sometimes I have no faith in humanity.
    I did a quick google search, and it is all about the right leaning sites screaming that the mean ole' gubbermind is claiming the least anyone will pay for health insurance in 2016 is 20k, and it just goes up from there! Sadly almost none of them link the actual report from the IRS (which the link OP posted DOES do) and they ignore the fact that it is a nice round number to make calculations easier, not an actual projection of cost, which is noted in the second page of the report.

  4. #144
    Legendary! Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr4vitas View Post
    Socializing anything or raising taxes in any way is NEVER the answer.
    So what about raising taxes during wartime? Oh, I forgot. Bush cut taxes during our time of war and didn't reduce spending. Look where that got us.
    "Do you think man will ever walk on the sun? -Ali G

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    You don't get it. You said I was being arbitrary about government's duties. I said I was drawing lines and those that weren't were unrealistic. You're all caught up on the word "dependent" and filled in the rest of the many blanks for me.

    Looking forward to finding out what I really meant in your next post.
    Government's duty is to pass effective legislation that does not violate the given powers it has.

    Can't wait until your overlords at dailykos, democratic underground and huffington have a way figured out to somehow blame it all on the republicans, then we can see what your reply is.
    I'm so confused. My kind are web administrators?

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    I did a quick google search, and it is all about the right leaning sites screaming that the mean ole' gubbermind is claiming the least anyone will pay for health insurance in 2016 is 20k, and it just goes up from there! Sadly almost none of them link the actual report from the IRS (which the link OP posted DOES do) and they ignore the fact that it is a nice round number to make calculations easier, not an actual projection of cost, which is noted in the second page of the report.
    Man since this debacle of a bill was passed I've watched the health care cost on insurance I have jump and jump and jump. It's probably going to cost even more than this when all is said and done.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  7. #147
    Just a few other interesting facts related to this:

    The IRS, by nature of failed wording in the ACA, has no provision to cover those that cannot afford these rates. That is FACT and they are worried about it (all levels, both parties). This essentially means that when fully enacted 500,000 families will not be able to afford this on average in any form but still taxed (and yes its a tax, not a fine) for lack of insurance. That is a huge goddamn problem.

    Secondly, the sale and marketplace of these plans are already interfering in at least 2 states law structures. Laws are like ripple effects. You change one and then more need to change. All that does is damage people fiscally.

    Which considering these two issues, makes the waiver that the unions want for lowest paid employees all more worrisome. As they fall squarely into that first category.

    Also, for those that haven't bothered to read the bill (rather obviously at that), the taxes levied are for everyone. Unless your insurance plan is "just right" you get hit in some manner. Either the company gets hit for under-assistance or you personally get hit for being over.

    Also, as a result of these changes, the reason that people are being fired and cut hourly is to match the new equation of cost effectiveness. Some people are worth keeping full-time, others simply are not. And those that are halftime are still counted in partial towards total full time employees. Therefore, many companies will being moving to a protean corp system (only system not addressed in the law and because countering this system is very very bad to all legal standards). Essentially, many companies will create internal structures and then contract out the filler. Making sure not to shoot past 50 employees unless necessary. Once you shoot past the initial 50, theres another stoppage rate, but I don't have my 2013 primer in front of me at this time.

    I also forgot to mention that the ACA is a presence only bill. Your taxes can be applied to all persons citizens or not.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Man since this debacle of a bill was passed I've watched the health care cost on insurance I have jump and jump and jump. It's probably going to cost even more than this when all is said and done.
    You do know the bill hasn't even fully kicked in right?

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Man since this debacle of a bill was passed I've watched the health care cost on insurance I have jump and jump and jump. It's probably going to cost even more than this when all is said and done.
    Imagine how much better it would have been if they just went and did proper universal healthcare without the "Socialism is the devil!" rhetoric.
    "You six-piece Chicken McNobody."
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH816 View Post
    You are a legend thats why.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Man since this debacle of a bill was passed I've watched the health care cost on insurance I have jump and jump and jump. It's probably going to cost even more than this when all is said and done.
    All the provisions have not been enacted. In fact most of it doesn't go into effect until next year. Your rising costs are just the private HMO's trying to swindle you before they can't anymore.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    "use health care or die" isn't a choice. If you really think it is then clearly if I hold a gun to your head and politely ask for your wallet I'm not doing anything wrong since you made a voluntary choice.
    This would only be relevant if you were equating someone with money who could pay for your healthcare - be it an insurance company, any company or any individual who could afford it - not doing so with that person or company taking affirmative action to murder you. "I'm sick/dying and you refused to pay for treatment on my terms" isn't even in the same dimension as "You killed me when I refused to hand over my wallet".

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Man since this debacle of a bill was passed I've watched the health care cost on insurance I have jump and jump and jump. It's probably going to cost even more than this when all is said and done.
    Man since I started working in '01 I've watched my insurance costs jump and jump and jump. I'd also note that the clauses of the bill that are supposed to at the very least slow the increasing cost of healthcare (caps on health insurance companies spending premiums on anything but actual medical costs) don't kick in until 2014 and 2016.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    This would only be relevant if you were equating someone with money who could pay for your healthcare - be it an insurance company, any company or any individual who could afford it - not doing so with that person or company taking affirmative action to murder you. "I'm sick/dying and you refused to pay for treatment on my terms" isn't even in the same dimension as "You killed me when I refused to hand over my wallet".
    What are you talking about?

  14. #154
    Wow so you think they are going to lower rates once it kicks in.

    Cool deal, which side of Mount Rushmore is it now?
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Wow so you think they are going to lower rates once it kicks in.

    Cool deal, which side of Mount Rushmore is it now?
    You do know you're blaming a bill for stuff before its even taken effect right?

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Slummish View Post
    My husband and I have medical, dental, vision, AD&D and $250,000 each in life insurance policies. We pay a little extra for a plan that lets us see our preferred doctors rather than ones dictated to us by the system. This coverage costs us exactly $141.00 per month in total through a major American firm. That's $1,700.00 per year.
    I'm pretty sure you pay out of pocket for most of your services.

    The IRS is assuming what they call Bronze coverage, which probably means insurance will pay for most of your expensive treatments (eg. cancer).

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Wow so you think they are going to lower rates once it kicks in.

    Cool deal, which side of Mount Rushmore is it now?
    They will HAVE to lower rates to be able to compete. Sigh, take some elementary economics courses.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You do know you're blaming a bill for stuff before its even taken effect right?
    Provisions of Obamacare have been in effect since it passed.

    You know that of course and are being intentionally obtuse.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Imagine how much better it would have been if they just went and did proper universal healthcare without the "Socialism is the devil!" rhetoric.
    "Socialism" is considered worse than many obscenities in my workplace. I almost lost my job when one of my coworkers complained after a debate we had.

    ...I live in Utah.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Rosse88 View Post
    The IRS, by nature of failed wording in the ACA, has no provision to cover those that cannot afford these rates. That is FACT and they are worried about it (all levels, both parties).
    Lol. You'd think any politician with brains would solve this problem BEFORE passing it. But no, have to have that bill to brag to your money-grabbing constituents about, and of course something to blame on the Republicans.

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