Which one of these hurt the community more?

[Tomana]

None of those, community is only hurt by a certain percentage of it being douchebags and a-holes.
People will be people (i.e. douchebags and a-holes) independently of all other factors.

---------- Post added 2013-02-03 at 07:12 PM ----------

Society. Growing up in a world based around materialism, its normal for kids to grow into materialists. Parents spoil their kids, so they don't know anything about being denied something. This combination creates trolling, nagging, arrogant, spoiled and lazy kids that woulnd go the extra mile if they got 10k gold for it. Add QQ when they don't get lewt, and there u have it: WoW community. Eventually you could say that shitty parenting did the trick.

Pretty much, yes. Social evolution is the root of anything, even WoW community

[Raiju]

The community hurts the community more than anything else you listed. People who complain about LFD/LFR have the option to not use it. People who don't like Transfers can suck it up. But the community is ever present.

Honestly the community is so bad that I don't even bother with trade chat. I have it pushed off into its own chat box and I haven't looked at it in years.

Would you say about 4 years? Yknow, when LFD came in and having to NOT BE AN ASS to people to get your groups made was no longer needed? Anyone claiming LFD did no harm to communities either didn't play or wasn't a part of the community beforehand (or were the asses?). Whether it's worse than transfers, I disagree but that is at least up for debate.

The previous method forced people to get along. LFD meant you were no longer responsible for your actions, and so naturally people act like idiots.

[Deleted]

Transfers. Fucked nearly every server and that's why we almost only have servers left with ratios of 1/0.05 gg blizzard

[Magpai]

Transfers. Fucked nearly every server and that's why we almost only have servers left with ratios of 1/0.05 gg blizzard

Translation: I wish people could not do something that they want to do (in this case, transfer servers). And it's THIS attitude that's ruined the "community", this attitude that makes the extremely loud and self-centered demographic dominate any discussion about WoW.

[Deleted]

Transfers. Completely messed up the balance on my server and left it for dead.

yup, dragonmaw here too, i remember the server at the start of wotlk, then by the end alliance side was totally dead, its recovering slowly now, but late wotlk and cata were just terrible. it also ruined horde side, but not to the same extent.

[Magpai]

The previous method forced people to get along. LFD meant you were no longer responsible for your actions, and so naturally people act like idiots.

The problem is not that BLizzard no longer incentivizes people enough into not being assholes. It's that people want to be assholes in the first place. You're blaming an organization system for the behavior that players will default to if able. That's like blaming Craigslist for you cheating on your girlfriend.

[Raiju]

The problem is not that BLizzard no longer incentivizes people enough into not being assholes. It's that people want to be assholes in the first place. You're blaming an organization system for the behavior that players will default to if able. That's like blaming Craigslist for you cheating on your girlfriend.

Except if you want to create an environment where people want to get along, you have to cater to the fact people are assholes. It's a fact of life. You can't defend it going "oh well it's human nature" when the last system for the most part prevented that behaviour from becoming widespread.

To use an analogy, a relative of mine keeps birds. Now you don't just keep them in open air the entire time and if they fly away go "oh it's just their nature" you keep them in a closed environment/cage when you aren't around.

[Tomana]

Would you say about 4 years? Yknow, when LFD came in and having to NOT BE AN ASS to people to get your groups made was no longer needed? Anyone claiming LFD did no harm to communities either didn't play or wasn't a part of the community beforehand (or were the asses?). Whether it's worse than transfers, I disagree but that is at least up for debate.

Yeah right, back in BC where you had to get your group by spamming /2, people never left a heroic after the first wipe or made drama about loot. Oh wait... they did XD

[BrerBear]

I believe cross server queuing is what added to the toxicity of the community. If everything was limited to within the server itself, people would refrain from ruining the reputation they had. With a poor reputation, you wouldn't get anywhere so it was required to either put on an act or actually be nice. Cross server, you most likely won't see those people again so acting poorly towards others has no real consequences.

All of which provides an interesting perspective, as it says that the only thing holding people back from their natural state of douchebaggery is consequences for their actions. Sad.

At the risk of being labeled an old fart, I blame the Internet. This isn't just happening to WoW. As the years are going by, more and more people are around who have most of their social activity shrouded by anonymity. This is encouraging very antisocial behavior, on- and offline.

[MallyCon]

LFD hurt the community the most by the way it was implemented. I have no problem at all there being a LFD system really, but making it cross-realm hurt so deep I might never be able to sit down again.
People don't care about people that's not from their own realm, they aren't as afraid of doing some bad against that player then.
They should have done LFD within your own server.

[Raiju]

Yeah right, back in BC where you had to get your group by spamming /2, people never left a heroic after the first wipe or made drama about loot. Oh wait... they did XD

I never said they didn't exist - I said the behaviour didn't become widespread because it was not profitable longterm to abandon groups left and right. The time and effort you put into making a group was part of the reason that groups would last longer as a general rule..

[Deleted]

Uh ?
Nothing.

[Deleted]

LFD in my opinion

[Sarthan]

Looking For Raid

[Wildtree]

None of those, community is only hurt by a certain percentage of it being douchebags and a-holes.
People will be people (i.e. douchebags and a-holes) independently of all other factors.

---------- Post added 2013-02-03 at 07:12 PM ----------



Pretty much, yes. Social evolution is the root of anything, even WoW community

I wanted to say almost exactly just that.
With one exception.. I would not use the term evolution. Evolution would mean an improvement. But we are facing a social decline.
A decline of respect and manners all across the board.

I am sure I'm not the only one who experiences things like this rather frequently than seldom:

Standing in the Valley during the dailies, to wait for those little blue guys to spawn up on that hill ramp, where the 2 tents are and the camp fire. They spawn there in a small group which you can take out twice, and you got your 8 kills. So, standing there waiting for them to spawn, after I waited politely for the guy who was there already, to get his 8 kills in.. Now, the moment they spawn, some knee jerk DK dives in, throws down his AOE, and grabs them all.
Instead of apologizing, no.... he's had a buddy coming and they aoe'd the whole spot constantly... And, not enough douchebag action already. They even tried to taunt me, by silly emotes and stuff.. I'm a bit too old for that childish behavior.
But it happens rather more often than not.
That's what the game experienced on change. To the worse..
When I started WoW, and I ran into others, we either helped each other, either grouped up for a few quests by asking, or we at least moved on to the next spot, where we didn't bother each other with stealing each others targets.

[Reyzzz]

Growth in size destroyed community.

[Deleted]

Translation: I wish people could not do something that they want to do (in this case, transfer servers). And it's THIS attitude that's ruined the "community", this attitude that makes the extremely loud and self-centered demographic dominate any discussion about WoW.

What community is there left to ruin if you're on a 1/0.05 server haha. I am self centered and 'extremly loud' for expressing my opinion in a single post on a fansite forum? It's a fact that Blizzard messed up almost all servers, and the ones that are populated, but with a 1/0.05 ratio are the lucky ones! My original server, was crowded until Cata, now it's a ghost server. I doubt all the people quit, nope that's right they transfered and messed up the whole server, only a few months ago the last raiding guild decided to leave the server. ' I wish people could not do something that they want', you made me laugh out loud, thanks friend. Let me translate it for you aswell: 'It's ok for Blizzard to allow players to completly ruin entire servers, because hey, they wanted to' $$$$$$$$$$$$$ What they should have done is allowing you to transfer one character every few months, but yeah that wouldnt have made them millions. And now, as there are so many fucked up servers, they earn even more money. Blizzard IS a company after all.

[Magpai]

Except if you want to create an environment where people want to get along, you have to cater to the fact people are assholes. It's a fact of life. You can't defend it going "oh well it's human nature" when the last system for the most part prevented that behaviour from becoming widespread.

To use an analogy, a relative of mine keeps birds. Now you don't just keep them in open air the entire time and if they fly away go "oh it's just their nature" you keep them in a closed environment/cage when you aren't around.

I'm not defending the way people are acting, I'm just not willing to blame BLizzard for not engineering a social environment where people are forced into treating people decently. Whenever I get abused by somebody in a dungeon, I blame that person and no one else for the most part. The root cause will always be that people are shitty to begin with. And while I don't relish that fact, I'd honestly rather people be who they really are then participate in some sham community where people only act polite for their own personal gain. That to me is even more selfish, hardly a good quality for a "community". I'd rather stick with the few people I've found who are great to be around.

I also think your analogy is hilarious. I mean you're basically saying that if you, YOU, want these birds to do what you want them to do, that is, stay in your relative's captivity, then you have to cage them. I guess the wishes of the birds themselves for their own life don't need to be considered in the slightest.

---------- Post added 2013-02-03 at 07:23 PM ----------

Let me translate it for you aswell: 'It's ok for Blizzard to allow players to completly ruin entire servers, because hey, they wanted to' $$$$$$$$$$$$$

You say this as if it's some sort of ironic humorous statement, but it's the reality. Blizzard exists to sell a product, not to safeguard you from undesirable social experiences or guide you into good ones.

[Stormspellz]

lfd as you are rewarded for being an ass

[Adramalech]

There is absolutely nothing that can hurt the community more than the community itself. Proof of that is that the community already sucked in the very first year of the game. It still does today? Absolutely. Is it worse than it was years ago? Possibly. But there is no bigger culprit for that than ourselves. Some parts of the game itself may contribute slightly for this, but in the end, we're responsible for it, because we are the community.