Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

No, LFR is raiding.

Lord Marrowgar 25 man level raiding, but raiding nonetheless.

If Lfr is for you Raiding?
Enjoy .
Since you dont do any 10-man or 25-man why do you bother? On 10-man and 25-man?

I mean ...Talen eu server... is Fanatic hater of 25-man even if is only raid Lfr......

Not even a single kill ..on normal.s....10-man...nothing.
He never did 10-man ...even he hate's 25-man.. and is Doing only 25-man...


Albert Eistein
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”

[Deleted]

If Lfr is for you Raiding?
Enjoy .
Since you dont do any 10-man or 25-man why do you bother? On 10-man and 25-man?

I mean ...Talen eu server... is Fanatic hater of 25-man even if is only raid Lfr......

Not even a single kill ..on normal.s....10-man...nothing.
He never did 10-man ...even he hate's 25-man.. and is Doing only 25-man...


Albert Eistein
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”

I do LFR and 10 man.

Gave up on 25 man in wrath, because 25 man raiding is shite cat herding nonsense. I'd rather enjoy the game and play the game rather than spend hours sorting rosters and recruitment out. 25 man management is difficult but it sure isn't fun.

[Radalek]

No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.

The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.

Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.

Are you even aware how ridiculous your claim is? Are you trolling?
Pugs still exist very much, LFR didn't exist back then. Pugs were not Wrath feature, they have always existed all the way since UBRS groups in vannila and they exist now as well. If LFR existed in Wrath then your claim might not be ridiculous but then result would be the same, you would see same fall in numbers.

Raiding scene numbers are falling down and current system is at fault, you can't deny that no matter how hard you try.

[Mesovr]

Are you even aware how ridiculous your claim is? Are you trolling?
Pugs still exist very much, LFR didn't exist back then. Pugs were not Wrath feature, they have always existed all the way since UBRS groups in vannila and they exist now as well. If LFR existed in Wrath then your claim might not be ridiculous but then result would be the same, you would see same fall in numbers.

Raiding scene numbers are falling down and current system is at fault, you can't deny that no matter how hard you try.

The game was at its peak back in wrath. Now its declining in numbers due to many factors not just the "current design". LFR did not exist back then true but if you dont count lfr raiders as real raiders its painfly obvious to see why according to you the number of raiders have decresed. A lot of people are happy with doing LFR once per week or less then doing a world boss and calling it. You cant simply exlude a huge feature like LFR and all its users just because when the game had the most active users the feature did not exist. Claiming that the current sytem is at fault only works if you cose your eyes to every other factor that has poped up since the launch of cata.

[Deleted]

I do LFR and 10 man.

Gave up on 25 man in wrath, because 25 man raiding is shite cat herding nonsense. I'd rather enjoy the game and play the game rather than spend hours sorting rosters and recruitment out. 25 man management is difficult but it sure isn't fun.

Ok Then
Youre raiding as a 10-man

But why you raid aswell in a 25-man format?

Mind to ask since until now you dont desire 2 much 25-man Guilds.

Even now You're doing your 10-man and is very nice? But why do you Do Lfr that is in a 25-man format and you hate it?

[Deleted]

Are you even aware how ridiculous your claim is?

What? My claim that something called looking for raid features raiding is outlandish?

Are you trolling?

No, I am reading.

Pugs still exist very much, LFR didn't exist back then. Pugs were not Wrath feature, they have always existed all the way since UBRS groups in vannila and they exist now as well. If LFR existed in Wrath then your claim might not be ridiculous but then result would be the same, you would see same fall in numbers.

Raiding scene numbers are falling down and current system is at fault, you can't deny that no matter how hard you try.

Raiding has never been more popular. You just want to ignore LFR because it destroys your special snowflake arguments.

Tough titties, really. LFR is raiding. Says right there on the tin.

[Radalek]

The game was at its peak back in wrath. Now its declining in numbers due to many factors not just the "current design". LFR did not exist back then true but if you dont count lfr raiders as real raiders its painfly obvious to see why according to you the number of raiders have decresed. A lot of people are happy with doing LFR once per week or less then doing a world boss and calling it. You cant simply exlude a huge feature like LFR and all its users just because when the game had the most active users the feature did not exist. Claiming that the current sytem is at fault only works if you cose your eyes to every other factor that has poped up since the launch of cata.

Yeah, game was at the peak back then. But recent numbers show that raiding scene shrunk by close to 35%, and we didn't have 35% subscriber loss, not even near. It's just that the current system is causing people to leave raiding, it's hurting the game.

[Deleted]

Ok Then
Youre raiding as a 10-man

But why you raid aswell in a 25-man format?

Mind to ask since until now you dont desire 2 much 25-man Guilds.

Even now You're doing your 10-man and is very nice? But why do you Do Lfr that is in a 25-man format and you hate it?

LFR is a 25 man format that has all the shit bits removed. That is, i can just queue up for it without needing a calendar, phone numbers of key people, back up players, ventrillo, a DKP system, a desk full of post it notes and aspirin.

If blizzard automated all the backroom stuff you need to run a 25 man guild i'd happily do them even though I prefer 10 mans for the atmosphere, but all the backroom nonsense is boring tedious mess that has no place in something that's supposed to be fun, so the second I could stop doing it, I did.

[MoanaLisa]

Are you seriously trying to say that raiding scene didn't shrunk by 30% or more since Wrath and trying to use LFR as an argument? LFR didn't exist back then. Current system is what caused it and there's no way around it.

I didn't say any of that. I penned a short little essay on the futility of people still saying that LFR isn't 'raiding' according to their definition of raiding. I quite agree that there are fewer people raiding now than a few years ago. I don't necessarily agree with single-reason answers like lockouts and never have. I really don't have much of an opinion at all about why so many more people raid in 10's these days other than that's what they prefer to do and that I disagree entirely with destroying every guild in existence by going to a single raid size. While I do now and always have preferred 25's to 10's I'm saddened that I'm on the losing side of that argument (as measured by what people seem to prefer) but accepting that when choices are provided, there will occasionally be winners and losers.

I agree with you pretty much 100% that there are people that prefer running LFR to being in raiding guilds. The flip side of that is that raiding generally--the existing raids in MoP which to my mind have been pretty good, as well as the new one coming along--is receiving more attention than it might have minus LFR and a consequent raiding population that at best is in the low teens as a percentage versus the entire player population.

While 25's as a format aren't in great shape at the moment, the content is there, there's plenty of it at the moment and Blizzard is currently showing no signs of abandoning it. You can probably thank LFR for a portion of that.

[Radalek]

What? My claim that something called looking for raid features raiding is outlandish?


No, I am reading.


Raiding has never been more popular. You just want to ignore LFR because it destroys your special snowflake arguments.

Tough titties, really. LFR is raiding. Says right there on the tin.

I am not arguing about LFR, you can have claims about as much as you like. What I am arguing about is your absolutely ridiculous claim that raiding is at the peak now cos total numbers boosted by LFR show that...sorry but that's beyond laughable.

[Deleted]

I am not arguing about LFR, you can have claims about as much as you like.

I'm not claiming anything. blizzard call it raiding. Therefore it's raiding.

What I am arguing about is your absolutely ridiculous claim that raiding is at the peak now cos total numbers boosted by LFR show that...sorry but that's beyond laughable.

So, let me get this straight.

Including LFR, there are more people raiding than ever. And this fact is ridiculous because...?

[Deleted]

Blizzard's definition of "raiding" doesn't matter one bit for this argument. It's a completely pointless discussion and an utter waste of time. What matters is this: The number of people engaging in the type of gameplay that used to be called "raiding" in vanilla, TBC, WotLK and early Cata has dropped. Another type of gameplay that only shares a few superficial traits with what used to be called "raiding", but is fundamentally different, has become popular and has affected the number of players engaged in what used to be called "raiding".[COLOR="red"]

so LFD isnt running dungeons either?
LFR is raiding period. more people than ever are pugging raids via a better tool than trade chat i.e. the raid finder tool, which happens to have a separate difficulty tuning.
it doesnt matter if lfr haters are in denial about this.

[Ragedaug]

Because one of the sizes requires far less effort to get those rewards, which necessarily obsoletes the other no matter how much people would prefer it.

That doesn't make any sense. I put far less effort into every 25 man raiding guild then the amount of effort I put into my 10 mans, yet for the same reward, I pick 10 mans every time.

So are you saying that if 10 mans required less effort we would all be flocking to 25 mans?

[chipsky]

What I am arguing about is your absolutely ridiculous claim that raiding is at the peak now cos total numbers boosted by LFR show that...sorry but that's beyond laughable.

Including LFR, there are more players raiding than ever before. It's a fact.

[Deleted]

LFR is a 25 man format that has all the shit bits removed. That is, i can just queue up for it without needing a calendar, phone numbers of key people, back up players, ventrillo, a DKP system, a desk full of post it notes and aspirin.

If blizzard automated all the backroom stuff you need to run a 25 man guild i'd happily do them even though I prefer 10 mans for the atmosphere, but all the backroom nonsense is boring tedious mess that has no place in something that's supposed to be fun, so the second I could stop doing it, I did.

Point is that you're gonna see some changed in less than 6 months.
How's are gonna be those changes?
Tier 10 most kills and most 25 kills, meaning more raiding slots even.
Tier 11 less kills than tier 10 by far.
Tier 12 less kills than thier 11
Tier 13 less kills than tier 12 by a bit, but with easier and more nerfed content
Tier 14 less kills than tier 13.
Tier 15 less kills than tier 14
Tier 16 less kills than tier 15.

In terms . 12 10-man Guilds in my serve Disbanded in less than 2 months. There is not even 1 new 10-man Guild.

You know what this mean.

At the point of not having or better to say having very few raider's. They gonna apply again Wotlk Style or Perhaps Tbc Style with different Raid's.
So then <Option>
I'm going to enjoy it because every day i'm seeying less and less Guilds and Due Raid timing on 1st day reset on some Guilds theres atm like 5 to 6 people online when 2/3 weeks ago was 12/13.I coun't 4 Guild with friend inside that couldn't raid this week. So again you will stuck up on 25-man.

Really not hate upon 10-man. But the experiment Failed and we saw and we will see the result's,

[chipsky]

Really not hate upon 10-man. But the experiment Failed and we saw and we will see the result's,

You didn't provide any compelling evidence besides you're own experience on a server and some speculation. 10-player raids enjoy a significant popularity advantage on my server. ...but that's just my experience. Blizzard says its been successful. Go figure.

[Deleted]

But the comparison should be between 3 ten man raids, not one.

Of course it shouldn't. That's completely nonsensical, to an absurd degree. People don't join, run or manage 3 ten mans, they join, run or manage one 25 or one 10 man.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 06:58 PM ----------

I didn't say any of that. I penned a short little essay on the futility of people still saying that LFR isn't 'raiding' according to their definition of raiding.

LFR is not raiding by any sensible definition. When you push a button, teleport to an instance with a bunch of random people, go afk or smash random buttons for less than an hour to collect loot, you're not raiding. Sorry, but you're just not.

[Deleted]

Of course it shouldn't. That's completely nonsensical, to an absurd degree. People don't join, run or manage 3 ten mans, they join, run or manage one 25 or one 10 man.

25 players can't join one 10 man raid, you need 3!

[MrHappy]

from close to 1000 posts now here are basic arugments

a) people that like 10's tend to do 10's
b) people that like 25's ted to do 25's
c) people that like 25's but are currently doing 10's because of lack of roster/incentive/other factors such as server pop, faction dominance, etc
d) any change to raiding have people up in arms that people who like 10's/25's will be forced to do 25's/10's respectively.
e) LFR has ruined the game while simultaneously making it better for tens of thousands of people that want to see the content at their own pace/time/etc
f) Blizzard is tailoring to casuals while at the same time creating content that is only for hardcore players
g) I disagree with your opinion but I will do it in non-civil manner and personal attacks because on the interwebs that is how you make your point valid
h) Blizzard ruined (insert number here) raiding because the server/guild that I am on does not do what I want, but instead of finding what better fits my time/interests/content progression rates/raiding environment I will blame the game instead because it is easier.


Some people here actually bothered to make valid points but most of them got flamed by people that fall under category g)

Look guys. You cannot deny that 25's take a higher logistical effort form both raiders, officers, people farming mats, etc. Having 25/10 split is a bad idea. Anyone who raided in Wrath would know why it is a bad idea and the problems that were happening with guilds. Like I said earlier, exclusivity is never a good thing. The smartest choice imho is the fix that Blizzard have made in 5.2 when it comes to drops. However, my peeve with the 5.2 Thunder-forged loot is that it should also be applied to things like Mounts and Tier Tokens as well. It would be nice to have say 5% in 25 and 2% in 10 (hypothetically) for a boss to drop a random token instead of a thunder-forged item (i.e have tokens be part of the thunder-forged loot table).

I find that the way incentive have been implemented is smart because it puts everyone on equal playing fields but 25's will get their stuff faster to compensate the logistical efforts. It is a good start and maybe in the future that % will include vanity items/mounts/other rewards vs just gear.

Just because you do not like a feature (like all the hate on pet battles and CRZ) does not mean it doesn't benefit the game for other people...which unfortunately for you also enjoy playing this game.

[Deleted]

25 players can't join one 10 man raid, you need 3!

You're not 25 players, you're one player.