Elemental PVE - What the heck am I doing wrong? :(

[Relapses]

Ive managed to pull your numbers. my item level is less then yours (484) but the thing is...i ignore my GM and do my own thing. unless it would completely screw the raid up and ive told her this ill do things my way just to max out my dps...bosses like say sprirt binder. i showed her my logs and now i dont go in the spirit realm at all..why? because i lose around 25k dps. its really about your play style and what can be ajusted.

Being a stubborn asshole is probably the worst advice you can give in a "fix my DPS" thread.

Is this you?

[zenga]

Being a stubborn asshole is probably the worst advice you can give in a "fix my DPS" thread.

His advise is actually not that bad ... showing your raid leader that your assignment cripples your performance and that you'd contribute better with another assignment is actually a good thing. It's up to the raid leader to decide if swapping assignments around is productive for the raid or not. Providing feedback about your spec for a specific encounter is something that I consider vital for developing a proper encounter strategy. And that includes both the strengths and the weaknesses of your spec.

[Riverness]

I feel like the logs he talks about might be recorded by someone else, and it is normal that his dps is 25k lower. Because that other person can't log him while he's inside.

If logs are handled differently this might not be the case, but I feel like this is what's happening here.

[Booniehat]

Noticed a major diff in your prepull strategies:

A. Prepot > Ele Blast > Fire Ele > Flame Shock

B. Prepot > Ele Blast > Flame Shock > Fire Ele.

Which is better to get your fire element to move faster? I've been doing option B. But someone just said option A gets your fire ele moving faster.

[Relapses]

His advise is actually not that bad ... showing your raid leader that your assignment cripples your performance and that you'd contribute better with another assignment is actually a good thing. It's up to the raid leader to decide if swapping assignments around is productive for the raid or not. Providing feedback about your spec for a specific encounter is something that I consider vital for developing a proper encounter strategy. And that includes both the strengths and the weaknesses of your spec.

Intentionally ignoring a raid leader is never good advice. You can argue the strengths and weaknesses of your class with the raid leader, but some amount of faith has to be placed in the people leading your raid in order to cohesively defeat an encounter. I understand your perspective, but what the poster before you suggested was for this guy to flat out ignore what's asked of him and to do his own thing... as a raid leader myself, this kind of behavior irritates me to no end and to see somebody earnestly put it forth as a "fix" to low DPS is highly frustrating. Hell, using the very example provided by that poster, Ele isn't even that bad going down into the spirit realm on Gara. If I were to wager a guess, the reason his DPS was 25k better staying out has a lot more to do with personal skill than class mechanics and again, that's a terrible reason to ignore a raid leader.

Just my 2c, though.

[Deleted]

Noticed a major diff in your prepull strategies:

A. Prepot > Ele Blast > Fire Ele > Flame Shock

B. Prepot > Ele Blast > Flame Shock > Fire Ele.

Which is better to get your fire element to move faster? I've been doing option B. But someone just said option A gets your fire ele moving faster.

I did option B before, but started to do option A instead because it felt like the fire elemental responded alot quicker (no travel time for lava burst etc) It may just be in my mind though. I don't see how you could loose any dps by delaying a flame shock 1 gcd though, and your fire elemental may get one more hit with the potion up ^^.

@Endus
My statement before on that we wasn't going to get buffed was because of the GC tweet saying that elementals PvE dps is fine at this moment. I've seen your calculations and agree with you, but GC seems to ignore them, or atleast pretend like he does. Anyways, hopefully they'll buff something at least, looking forward to final patch notes

[Endus]

@Endus
My statement before on that we wasn't going to get buffed was because of the GC tweet saying that elementals PvE dps is fine at this moment. I've seen your calculations and agree with you, but GC seems to ignore them, or atleast pretend like he does. Anyways, hopefully they'll buff something at least, looking forward to final patch notes

The tweet you mention wasn't specific, so I'm holding out hope that he was referring to mechanics rather than numbers. I'm not going to be surprised if it turns out he was referring to numbers, though; IMO the DPS lag that Elemental is suffering was visible and predictable during the beta, and they haven't addressed it yet.

[Tesshin20]

Since you are healing a lot of fights, it is not so easy to find a fight which can be analyzed. Some fights include dmg buffs, during some fights the logs are screwed etc.

I just had a short look on your fight against heroic Spirit kings.

You use Elemental blast, but only cast 20 during 500 seconds. That' one every 25 seconds (not even including EotE-Procs) - but the spell has 12 seconds CD. I usually try to avoid Elemental blast and use PE because I also mess up the rotation - but only with one every 15 seconds. Maybe u should consider changing your talents.

You also have low uptime of FS on this boss (and on other bosses as pointed out above).

Do you have hc Spirit kings also already on farm that screwing up is tolerated, as you pointed out above?

If not, this might be a major issue - because 1 min 20 seconds without flame shock is too much wasted uptime.

Therefore, you had 5 non-critical hits of LvB.

You missed 70 seconds of fire totem uptime.

No pots - fix that.

Maybe others find more, but that is what I would try to correct.

Thanks for this info.

When I look at what you found out in the log it seems pretty horrible to do things so incorrectly, its even so horrible I cant even believe it. I dare suggest it must be an error in there, because I dare to say that I keep things up 99% of the time.

But it might be correct. I will certinaly act like it is and continue to improve on this.

Thanks for your effort.

[Relapses]

GC's stated a few times they've yet to do a numbers pass on the PTR so it's very likely we'll see some amount of tuning before 5.2 hits.

[Tesshin20]

No, I don't. I've been arguing that we needed about a 10% bump to our DPS, ideally focused mostly on our sustained damage abilities rather than increasing our burst potential (mostly for PvP pressure issues than PvE), since the beta, when GC announced that Stormlash wasn't factored in to our valuation as a spec. I'm not trying to say "our damage is/will be fine", I'm just pointing out that they haven't DONE the numbers tuning yet, so you can't really complain that they haven't tweaked our DPS.



He's been pretty mum about us having issues, outside of one tweet back in December. I'm not expecting changes along the lines that I think we need, to be honest; I've been making an argument for a 10% bump since the beta, and it's gone untouched since then. And I think the raidbots data has borne me out on that; we're just about 10% behind the median DPS, overall.

So no, I'm not saying "everything is fine, keep calm and carry on". Just that you need to wait until the number tweaking's being done before you can say that we aren't getting number tweaks.

I agree. We need a buff to LB damage and also searing totem to make it more "fun" to put down. Thats at least my suggestion.

I do pop up to 160k-200k during pull, but it slowly falls down to 70k as the fight progresses. We need more sustained damage. If I landed at 90k with my gear at the end of the fight still 10k-15k below the warlocks I would be very happy.

[Deleted]

Thanks for this info.

When I look at what you found out in the log it seems pretty horrible to do things so incorrectly, its even so horrible I cant even believe it. I dare suggest it must be an error in there, because I dare to say that I keep things up 99% of the time.

But it might be correct. I will certinaly act like it is and continue to improve on this.

Thanks for your effort.

Well, it might sometimes happen that logs are screwed (e.g. usually Garajal and Sha of fear).

I had an experience last Monday, that started to let me doubt the accuracy of the logs.

Take a look (Spirit king normal mode 10man): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d6...?s=8191&e=8476

On my recount, I was first - even above the hunter.
However, the log tells otherwise.

However, if you examine my dmg, it seems that I did not use my Primal Fire Elemental, but only my Earth Elemental.

Now, where did the Primal Fire Elemental dmg go to?

If you take a closer look on our enhancer, he has 4 "pets" including Fire Elemental and Primal Fire Elemental - which simply is not possible.

In fact, the dmg of MY Primal Fire Elemental was added to his dmg, leaving me nearly at the bottom of the raid.

Back to your log:
I don't think that your log is wrong since you seem to REALLY have dps problems within such large margins.
(I examined the log because it was totally off from my ingame dmg meter and personal experience).

However, always take your logs with a grain of salt.

[Booniehat]

I agree. We need a buff to LB damage and also searing totem to make it more "fun" to put down. Thats at least my suggestion.

I do pop up to 160k-200k during pull, but it slowly falls down to 70k as the fight progresses. We need more sustained damage. If I landed at 90k with my gear at the end of the fight still 10k-15k below the warlocks I would be very happy.

Agree - LB feels spammy, and for like a 15K (I think?) damage spell the cast time is just dumb. I know every caster has low dmg "fillers" but LB feels like a light blue water squirt at the boss.

I was wondering if Searing Totem could ever be reworked to be a substantial DPS contributer. I know it's great DPET but it just feels like a chore to place. I'd rather it actually hit as hard as a LvB, but with a somewhat slower cast time. Would also be great in PVP cos it'd give people a reason to switch off you and take pressure away. Otherwise, get rid of it and put damage back into our LB or something.

[Deleted]

Agree - LB feels spammy, and for like a 15K (I think?) damage spell the cast time is just dumb. I know every caster has low dmg "fillers" but LB feels like a light blue water squirt at the boss.

I'm sorry but, this is just bullshit. We need something else being buff instead of LB. It crits for just as much as an Lava burst. The damage difference between LB and Lava burst is just too low. Dont for get its our FILLER, and it crit for 120k for me... thats really a lot. ofc in PVE.
Sometimes my avg dmg in LB is just as much as LvB. I want some more spells to throw @ the enemy and lower the LB dmg.

[Deleted]

Agree.. with all CDs up, my lightning bolt can crit for up to 150k and more. But then my lava burst crits for ~250k... with Skull Banner up.
My Pull Rotation is as following:

Tank counting down from 5:

At around 4 I pop fire ele, followed by Stormlash (you lose around 2 sec of it, but minimal loss, since we have 4 shamans in the raid), prepot and EB precast, so that it hits around the same time the tank pulls. Immediately followed by a flameshock, bloodlust, a first lavaburst, ascendance and LvB Spam.. Then normal rotation. With this I can pull up to 350k at hc Blade Lord Tayak in the ascendance phase.
At most fights I end up at ~110k dps single target, ilvl 503. Yesterday I had 116k dps at Vizier normal, but our guy didn't log. :S Would have been rank 4-5 or so.

[Tesshin20]

Agree.. with all CDs up, my lightning bolt can crit for up to 150k and more. But then my lava burst crits for ~250k... with Skull Banner up.
My Pull Rotation is as following:

Tank counting down from 5:

At around 4 I pop fire ele, followed by Stormlash (you lose around 2 sec of it, but minimal loss, since we have 4 shamans in the raid), prepot and EB precast, so that it hits around the same time the tank pulls. Immediately followed by a flameshock, bloodlust, a first lavaburst, ascendance and LvB Spam.. Then normal rotation. With this I can pull up to 350k at hc Blade Lord Tayak in the ascendance phase.
At most fights I end up at ~110k dps single target, ilvl 503. Yesterday I had 116k dps at Vizier normal, but our guy didn't log. :S Would have been rank 4-5 or so.

Thats close to what I did as well. That dps you did there is quite insane. I cant even understand that small details can make the dps go double.

[Relapses]

Just throwing it out there, Storm is in a 25M raiding guild, so it's somewhat difficult to compare that to your 10M guild's raid DPS due to the amount of DPS synergy you get in 25s. He is generally playing a lot better, but the difference isn't quite as substantial as he likes to make it sound.

[Enitzu]

I'm sorry but, this is just bullshit. We need something else being buff instead of LB. It crits for just as much as an Lava burst. The damage difference between LB and Lava burst is just too low. Dont for get its our FILLER, and it crit for 120k for me... thats really a lot. ofc in PVE.
Sometimes my avg dmg in LB is just as much as LvB. I want some more spells to throw @ the enemy and lower the LB dmg.

While you maybe right and LB can crit for some decent numbers, it never comes close to LvB for me ... EVER. Not to mention that crit is our weakest stat so the amount of actual LB crits is very low. Most people only running around 10-12% crit. Granted it may in fact become better in the higher ilvls, being only 480 since I switched to shaman for the guild, I don't really know but currently LB could easily use a 15-20% dmg buff to up our sustained dps.

[Booniehat]

While you maybe right and LB can crit for some decent numbers, it never comes close to LvB for me ... EVER. Not to mention that crit is our weakest stat so the amount of actual LB crits is very low. Most people only running around 10-12% crit. Granted it may in fact become better in the higher ilvls, being only 480 since I switched to shaman for the guild, I don't really know but currently LB could easily use a 15-20% dmg buff to up our sustained dps.

Agreed. I'm not seeing what he's seeing. Average LB hits for 30K*. Sometimes it goes up to high 40Ks, but that's rare, most like in the 30-35K range. with 250% crit on a 35K LB, that's a 90K CRIT there.

My average Lava burst is 110-120K and LB hit is 35ish K.

My guess is that Beriotharion just saw one outlier crit and recorded that as the "average" of LB crit. It's really not. LB crits are rare.

I wont be at my wow computer for a bit, so I just randomly picked a raiding Ele's POV video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht6kyXQpMyQ.

He's good geared, pulling 85K DPS. And most of his LBs CRITS are 85-90K. His low Lava bursts are ~110L, most are 120K. The LB crits occur ~10% rate.

Is a 20K (it's about 15%) difference small? On a spell that, even on a iLevel 500 shaman armory, has about a 12% chance to crit? (see gistwiki on US armory).

My point was LB baseline is weak. I'm not saying buff LB. I'm saying Shaman damage is weak.

*In my post, I put 15K, this is my mistake. Just did a few Arenas with my shammy and was getting 15K hits on 50% resil players :P. But my point is still there. It's wetnoodle bolt.

[Deleted]

Just throwing it out there, Storm is in a 25M raiding guild, so it's somewhat difficult to compare that to your 10M guild's raid DPS due to the amount of DPS synergy you get in 25s. He is generally playing a lot better, but the difference isn't quite as substantial as he likes to make it sound.

Thats only true in some 10s. With this 10 comp, you have everything as well... Bloodlust, Skull Banner, all buffs and debuffs..
Blizz made it a lot easier for 10s, now that so many classes bring so many buffs. It's very rare for a 10m to miss many substantial buffs.

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000


And just on a side note.. when did I make the difference sound substantial? I just gave an insight to my pull rotation and how much dps I pull, nothing elitist there.

[Booniehat]

What is the "trigger" that makes your fire elemental move on target instead of staying there dumbly for 3-4 seconds? Is it your flameshock, or just your current target you're casting on?