Shaman and Warlocks should have a 4th spec too?

[Dyra]

I can agree with Shamans gaining a fourth spec in Tanking, but not with Warlocks. There's already far too much competition for hit cloth with all mages, all warlocks and shadow priests able to use it. Any cloth without spirit or hit on it is fair game to all 9 specs. Unless the Warlock class gets altered to using Int Plate, I can't see it happen.

I can also agree with Monks and Paladins also getting ranged specs to make use of Int Plate, and Int Leather. Another user of Int Mail would be nice.

[Kawlisse]

Ahhhh, the old "Enh was meant to be a tank" thread. Enhancement was never designed to be a tank spec...period...ever. It originally fit the utility/buffer role that WoW did away with after classic (because it was boring to play). Enh could (rarely) offtank, and buff the shit out of other people, but it was never meant to be a full-on tank spec like a warrior. Paladins were the same except that while Enh could provide subpar melee, offtanking, and buffs from the same tree; paladins had a spec dedicated to offtanking (which really sucked). What blizzard has done is the most logical thing, ret and enh went to pure melee dps, and paladins prot tree became a viable tank.

That's really all there is to it. Claiming Shaman should get a 4th spec because of something they never actually did is kind of silly. Plus it wouldn't be necessary unless there was some tanking concept that blizzard was dying to try out that fit well for class lore.

Did you ever played in vanilla, (played a shaman in vanilla) ? patch 1.10 (and before) enhance shamans, had +10 def in the tree, plus mails items had +def on them, invulnerable mail I think it was, toughness was also deep into enhance tree.

Shamans were not spectacular main tanks but off tanking no one could steal my aggro !

[baldcore]

I have thought about the fourth spec my idea is instead to change how warlock progression is entirely by borrowing from the druid mold. Warlocks when they gain demons and learn to use them but as a warlock grows stronger the transformation from humanoid to demon slowly begins. As players near 95, they become demons literally. The final stage of transformation is gaining the ability to sacrifice the pet thus gaining its physical form. In other words, players become their pets only these new forms carry over some of the abilities of the original body. What demon you choose also will dictate the kind of role you take. Affliction players will find benefits in becoming a felhound or succubus as their ability to spread plagues and manipulate others is greatly improved. Destruction players will find being an imp with its fast casting or an infernal with monsters ranged fire attacks combined with thunderous burning cleaves most entertaining. Demonology players will finally gain the power to tank as a powerful voidwalker that constantly gains health through the shadows while taking a considerable pounding or as a felguard with the ability to take on any number of enemies as its rage only grows stronger with each swing of its weapon. Yeah there is no need for a fourth spec for warlocks. Just let them become the demons their meant to be instead of being trapped forever in a singular mortal humanoid husk.

[Venziir]

Wow, none of that has anything to do with what you responded to. Again, Blizzard designed Enhancement from Thrall. That's where the basis for melee Shaman comes from. What he was patterned after in WC3 is irrelevant. In almost all of Thrall's artwork, he is portrayed as a Shaman warrior who just happens to wear heavy (mail) armor, and wields a big hammer (2h Mace), and is capable of using nature magic (frost shock and WF).

and no yet again... Most of Thrall's artwork actually involves him either doing nothing (pre-cata) or him hurling ligtning at stuff wearing robes (post-cata). Oh, and vanilla Enh involved a lot of improved totems, again prior to WoW totems was known ad wards and were a witch doctor and shadowy hunter ability, in fact we neve saw Thrall use a totem in game until Cata. Oh and Thrall used the Doomhammer as both a 1h and a 2h weapon. Truth is, the shaman in WoW is an amalgamation of the Far Seer, Shaman, Witch Doctor, Shadow Hunter, Tauren Chieftain and Spirit Walker units. Oh and if you'd actually had a source proving your claim... Then you might be just a little bit right... Alas....

[Megalithe]

I would love to see this and someday it will happen, alas not this expansion.
I could see Hunter tanking, Fortitude priest tanking, and at one time even frost...
Who knows what blizz will roll out in the future.

Monks as well, they need a ranged spec.

^ NO - its contrary to the lore of the class

+1 for the ranged pally idea but it would require adding a lot to the class...basically an entirely new class

[Maios]

Did you ever played in vanilla, (played a shaman in vanilla) ? patch 1.10 (and before) enhance shamans, had +10 def in the tree, plus mails items had +def on them, invulnerable mail I think it was, toughness was also deep into enhance tree.

Shamans were not spectacular main tanks but off tanking no one could steal my aggro !

Yes I did. And that's exactly what I said. Off-tanking was utility, it fit the theme that Enhancement was supposed to "enhance" his/her group. Since shaman didn't have their off-tanking utility in a dedicated tree like paladins, they didn't get a dedicated tanking spec.

[Algearond]

No, too many specs as is, if anything we need to consolidate some of the specs and prune a few down.

Priest: Consolidate Holy & Disc
Rogue: Consolidate Ass & Sub
Hunter: Merge Survival into BM and MM
Mage: Merge Arcane into Fire & Frost

[Teriz]

I would argue that the current shaman specs aren't thematic by element. And even if they were, then we'd need 5 specs to fit all of shaman's themes because of their spirituality.

Actually they are thematic by element. The totems and the imbues back that up, and used to back that up more before the totem system was changed in MoP and buff totems were eliminated.

Wind: increase melee and casting speed. (Windfury Totem, Wrath of Air totem, Windfury Weapon)
Fire: Magic damage increase. (Flametongue totem, Totem of Wrath, Flametongue Weapon)
Water: Restorative/healing magic. (Healing tide totem, Cleansing Totem, Mana Tide totem, Mana Spring totem, Earthliving Weapon)
Earth: protection and defense. (Stoneskin totem, Strength of Earth totem, Rockbiter Weapon)

Is it any wonder that the specs line up exactly like the elements do?

[Belphrala]

I agree with the OP the basis is their, whether or not blizz will put into game of even think about it is in question.

[Hishiro]

I totally support adding a forth spec to shaman, for tanking based on the element of earth.

The only thing I would add, then, would that shaman would need a new ability, possibly on a long cooldown...

Avatar State: The shaman imbues himself with the powers of the elements, and begins to glow. All abilities from all specs are unlocked as the shaman has mastered the four elements. Your primary stat is increased by 200% while the effect lasts, and damage is reduced by 75% as you will have a rotating shield of all the elements floating around you.

But seriously, yeah tanking on a shaman would be fun.

[Maios]

Wind: increase melee and casting speed. (Windfury Totem, Wrath of Air totem, Windfury Weapon)
Fire: Magic damage increase. (Flametongue totem, Totem of Wrath, Flametongue Weapon)
Water: Restorative/healing magic. (Healing tide totem, Cleansing Totem, Mana Tide totem, Mana Spring totem, Earthliving Weapon)
Earth: protection and defense. (Stoneskin totem, Strength of Earth totem, Rockbiter Weapon)

That shows that the elements have a theme, but the shaman specs don't alight directly with the element themes. All specs use all elements.

[Venziir]

Actually they are thematic by element. The totems and the imbues back that up, and used to back that up more before the totem system was changed in MoP and buff totems were eliminated.

Wind: increase melee and casting speed. (Windfury Totem, Wrath of Air totem, Windfury Weapon)
Fire: Magic damage increase. (Flametongue totem, Totem of Wrath, Flametongue Weapon)
Water: Restorative/healing magic. (Healing tide totem, Cleansing Totem, Mana Tide totem, Mana Spring totem, Earthliving Weapon)
Earth: protection and defense. (Stoneskin totem, Strength of Earth totem, Rockbiter Weapon)

Is it any wonder that the specs line up exactly like the elements do?

Quick thing though... Wrathion f air was originaly an SP buff, Wrath gave crit and flametongue gave the flametongue weapon buff to party members.

[Drilnos]

Wow, none of that has anything to do with what you responded to. Again, Blizzard designed Enhancement from Thrall. That's where the basis for melee Shaman comes from. What he was patterned after in WC3 is irrelevant. In almost all of Thrall's artwork, he is portrayed as a Shaman warrior who just happens to wear heavy (mail) armor, and wields a big hammer (2h Mace), and is capable of using nature magic (frost shock and WF).

In those examples of artwork he is outfitted in Orgrim Doomhammer's gear. Orgrim was a warrior. He wore plate. And his eponymous weapon was a one-hander, after its original long handle was replaced at some point between WC2 and WC3.

[Venziir]

In those examples of artwork he is outfitted in Orgrim Doomhammer's gear. Orgrim was a warrior. He wore plate. And his eponymous weapon was a one-hander, after its original long handle was replaced at some point between WC2 and WC3.

Yeah the hammer is kinda odd really, it's been describe as both a 1h and a 2h even when wielded by Thrall, the final conclussion has to be that while it resembles a 2h to a human, it's a 1h to an orc because they are that bit bigger and stronger.

[Teriz]

and no yet again... Most of Thrall's artwork actually involves him either doing nothing (pre-cata) or him hurling ligtning at stuff wearing robes (post-cata). Oh, and vanilla Enh involved a lot of improved totems, again prior to WoW totems was known ad wards and were a witch doctor and shadowy hunter ability, in fact we neve saw Thrall use a totem in game until Cata. Oh and Thrall used the Doomhammer as both a 1h and a 2h weapon. Truth is, the shaman in WoW is an amalgamation of the Far Seer, Shaman, Witch Doctor, Shadow Hunter, Tauren Chieftain and Spirit Walker units. Oh and if you'd actually had a source proving your claim... Then you might be just a little bit right... Alas....

What does him doing nothing in a picture have anything to do with what I'm talking about? Again, Thrall was a Shaman, and he was used as a basis for putting melee Shaman into WoW. If Shaman were soley based on caster units, there would be no melee spec in the class. The melee spec is there because of Thrall's influence on the class.

Oh, and Tauren Chieftain were a tanking unit. So there's another example of Shaman tanking from lore that you said didn't exist.

[crazyman2]

Shaman, absolute yes. Earth is missing and it seems to be have been the original intent of the class anyway, although it has been moved away from

Warlocks are probably a decent candidate, DA glyph is most of the way there anyway. Locks traditionally were caster tanks, and actually used in fights where the bosses or at least phases used primarily spell damage (leotheras, illidan, capernicus)
I could see a model where they were the best anti caster tanks, but somewhat worse at physically tanking, sort of like a DK but on a bit more extreme scale.

Unfortunately, the difference with druids is that they tried up until cata to have two specs in one tree, and it made sense to split them finally whereas lock and shaman trees have been slowly getting rid of the niche spec for years, the class design moved away from it
Then there's the fact that once the cat is out of the bag everyone is going to want four specs, and certain classes are a real stretch to give a 4th spec. It also would likely require way more effort and development time to create new specs than just splitting the tree that already had two specs druid

[Teriz]

That shows that the elements have a theme, but the shaman specs don't alight directly with the element themes. All specs use all elements.

You just said that the elements don't have a theme. I would appreciate it if you admit you were wrong about that earlier.

As for the specs, they do share the elemental theme. Certainly they use each element, but one element dominates each spec. This is best illustrated by Ascendance and how each spec is given its appropriate element.

[Venziir]

What does him doing nothing in a picture have anything to do with what I'm talking about? Again, Thrall was a Shaman, and he was used as a basis for putting melee Shaman into WoW. If Shaman were soley based on caster units, there would be no melee spec in the class. The melee spec is there because of Thrall's influence on the class.

Oh, and Tauren Chieftain were a tanking unit. So there's another example of Shaman tanking from lore that you said didn't exist.

Sigh.... The only thing the shaman clas for from the T Chieftain was Reincarnation, please do try and keep up. And again - Thrall is special, and he didn't melee a thing prior to WoW which was the same point a the introduction of enhancement. Hell, even if you attacked him in vanilla, he's defend himself by mainly using CL. Yawn....

[Maios]

You just said that the elements don't have a theme. I would appreciate it if you admit you were wrong about that earlier.

As for the specs, they do share the elemental theme. Certainly they use each element, but one element dominates each spec. This is best illustrated by Ascendance and how each spec is given its appropriate element.

Is this serious? Are you really saying that's what I said. I'm not going to have a discussion with you if you can't read.

And no, each spec uses every single element. You don't get to ignore the air element in lightning bolt because it suits you.

[apepi]

Because blizzard does not want them to tank. If they did they would be tanking right now. They wanted druids to be able to tank so they are.