How -I- feel about MOP PVP.

[God8010]

Gonna start by saying everything here is my opinion. I don't know if masses feel this way and I'm not going to pretend they do. Everything listed here is how -I- feel.

Been playing since BC. Played every class cept Paladin and Shamen. Monk too if we're really counting that. Use to put in over 60 hours a week to this game for a couple years on end. Went as far as to give up everything but my job to enjoy this addiction. Still say it was worth it.

Each time I would level a new toon, I learned things I would just have to accept. While leveling, I would be ganked hard and die faster than my relationship status on facebook.. It was cool though, I was half his level. You fight on though and make it to level cap. Back in the day this meant you had enough honor to buy your full gear set if you leveled in BG's, but that was taken away and for most of wrath and all of cata you had to farm that set at level cap. So for about half the farming time, you knew you were nothing more than a HK and the only thing you could offer was mechanics because you didnt have close to the stats to offer real damage. Whatever, I was still cool with it.

At one point, for me it's about halfway through gearing on honor and finding a PVE weapon somewhere, the tables change. You finally find yourself in a ballpark of enough stats that your choices mattered. I could provoke cooldowns and cc them out, juke def cooldowns with scary spell bar cast names and make the most of my own cooldowns. It was fun. It is what I enjoy to do on the off days that I'm not raiding.

MOP introduced a new conceptual perception with new stats to enforce it, PVP power and PVP resil. The concept was the longer a player has played the better off he should be in PVP. The problem this creates is unless you played -that- toon since week one, you of course would fall behind. Before that might mean losing a fight to a couple thousand hp, now it just craps on every mechanic of any class. Lets take a fully geared ret for example. before you look to shut down the wings and get past hands/bubble whatever reset they use for their forbearance and get yours in the downtime. Now, you can completely shut down his cd's but because PVP power is soo strong he can still outdamage me in my cooldowns with his standard damage.

What this has done is extended the time I'm suppose to ignore stuff. I ignored it when he had more levels than i did. I ignored it when I had no gear. Now though, I'm expected to ignore it if he happened to farm longer than me. The problem with this ignore is it never ends. You cannot catchup at all. You see people doing things you knew to be wrong, but because he had 2k more pvp power than you, he can spam his 5 buttons ignore his own cooldowns and keep on winning.

That's the biggest insult ever. The real players you worked hard to beat and became friends with, keep trying to tweak your stuff for and knew they were a hard fight tell me, "Winning isn't even winning anymore. I didn't outskill you, I outgeared you." And this is the guy the system is catering to, yet he has grown bored with it because he knows its been done in such a way that his target had no choice.

SO .. I dont know.. I'm guessing there is enough new people that people like me dont matter anymore. I wont lie, blizzard could burn my 15 bucks and think nothing of it. The company already makes billions when you check the math. I can only assume the goal is to push PVE farmers into PVP and let the goal of farming be the one all end all to decisive pvp outcomes. For all I know, this could be even more profitable than the old system I grew use to.

However, I'm not cool with it anymore. I resub if I can hold a raiding spot, but I refuse to keep a sub going when my raiding spot is one nerf away from being replaced and my downtime enjoyment has been given to a different group of people with a very different mindset.

I just don't understand how I could feel satisfaction in this setup. Even if I had been farming since week 1, I dont want to win just because of my gear more-so if they have farmed their honor set and have already suffered the parts of the game where you're suppose to just ignore it. If I'm outplayed, I want to lose. I know this sounds weird but when I keep winning then I learn nothing. In losing I can change my tactics or stats or openers or rotations or what have you. I would feel shame to win watching someone correlate their attack perfect to my actions and yet have no choice in the matter. I don't want him to ignore it.

I would want him to know I am sorry and that I disagree with this system. That is why I end my sub.

[Feranor]

I just don't understand how I could feel satisfaction in this setup. Even if I had been farming since week 1, I dont want to win just because of my gear more-so if they have farmed their honor set and have already suffered the parts of the game where you're suppose to just ignore it. If I'm outplayed, I want to lose. I know this sounds weird but when I keep winning then I learn nothing. In losing I can change my tactics or stats or openers or rotations or what have you. I would feel shame to win watching someone correlate their attack perfect to my actions and yet have no choice in the matter. I don't want him to ignore it.

This seems to be a niche mindset. From what I can tell the vast majority of players just wants to win, regardless of whether its their own skill, class/comp, gear, exploits or RNG that causes them to win. And they'll usually use their undeserved advantage to gloat.

I gave a different example on a similar topic a while ago: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ational-sadism

[Deleted]

Was thinking the same since Cataclysm. No point in pvp'ing if "outplaying" someone matters less and less with every patch and expansion. Right now its just about cooldowns, gear and a little movement/positioning. Mechanics have become so easy to execute and to understand that just wasnt fun for me anymore.

[God8010]

That's the only answer i could come to. The group of people who dont care about the "how" coming in strong enough numbers to have the power. If the mindset behind the design intended to benefit players who worked from week one over all players in general, anything I can say to argue against it is pointless because they only carry the value of the person saying such things. I value the choice in the moment, so if the choice is attacked my mind wants to explain how it's a "problem." However if my mindset says players who played longer deserve an easier life than it's easy for me to argue in favor of this system because I would have to value outcome over action in the moment. I think.. My standing is value on the choice in the moment, so to even pretend to see it how they do is still a bias I can't avoid.

I could become my own enemy with taking one different perception. I just dont value outcome over choice of the moment.

I'll check out your thread now. I need to read some opinions on this cause I kinda miss old wow a lot these days.

[dPwnShop]

Max level pvp should have 1 set of honor gear you have to get at the start of an expac. All other pvp related gear should be for transmog/cosmetic purposes only. Would make it easier to balance, still give people something to log on and play for (the grind would still be there) and most importantly everyone would be on a level playing field when it comes to pvp. Just my 2cents on what would make pvp much more enjoyable in WoW.

[Hand Banana]

So basically your complaining about the gear disparity? Gear has literally always been an issue... I cant remember if its still going through but arent they also implementing a "catch-up" system for conquest for people who start late in 5.2?

Was thinking the same since Cataclysm. No point in pvp'ing if "outplaying" someone matters less and less with every patch and expansion.

Honestly I disagree with this. "Outplaying" still exists. I can survive literally 5 people in a bg on my hpally for a while if they are bad, no matter what the gear. But I will literally have to bubble within 3 second of 2 coordinated dps focusing me even if their gear is subpar. Similarly, on my warrior, I have won a 3v1 recently with 2 warriors and 1 rogue vs. my warrior in a bg. They had only 8k less life than me on average so only slightly less geared but I was able to win a 3v1 purely from skill. Cant even mention class since 2 of the classes I was fighting was the same as mine. I feel like skill is still a big part of the game as its always been, its just easier to notice gear differences.

[Phurox]

So basically your complaining about the gear disparity? Gear has literally always been an issue... I cant remember if its still going through but arent they also implementing a "catch-up" system for conquest for people who start late in 5.2?



Honestly I disagree with this. "Outplaying" still exists. I can survive literally 5 people in a bg on my hpally for a while if they are bad, no matter what the gear. But I will literally have to bubble within 3 second of 2 coordinated dps focusing me even if their gear is subpar. Similarly, on my warrior, I have won a 3v1 recently with 2 warriors and 1 rogue vs. my warrior in a bg. They had only 8k less life than me on average so only slightly less geared but I was able to win a 3v1 purely from skill. Cant even mention class since 2 of the classes I was fighting was the same as mine. I feel like skill is still a big part of the game as its always been, its just easier to notice gear differences.

Yup and the catch-up is a joke.

You can get more than 1800 Conq Points each week. Which takes forever, if you hate arena and RBG.

[Delznope]

Gear has literally always been an issue... I cant remember if its still going

QFE Always. In every game.

I play a rogue... a class considered to be underpowered at the moment and I do very well in kills. I have missed a few conquest cappouts this season, so my gear isn't as good as it should be.

Time and effort reward those willing to do the work. You cannot expect to hit 90, farm full dreadful and be able to stand toe to toe with say... a full mal warrior or hunter. My tip to you would be to keep up on your gear next season.

[Feranor]

QFE Always. In every game.

I play a rogue... a class considered to be underpowered at the moment and I do very well in kills. I have missed a few conquest cappouts this season, so my gear isn't as good as it should be.

Time and effort reward those willing to do the work. You cannot expect to hit 90, farm full dreadful and be able to stand toe to toe with say... a full mal warrior or hunter. My tip to you would be to keep up on your gear next season.

This would be acceptable on RP-PvP (yes, I know that's an oxymoron) servers, since there, you are supposed to be playing against other characters as your character, and not just use it as a medium/tool to fight other players as a player.

It should be possible to get the best PvP gear (stat-wise) available in 1-2 weeks after dinging max level. Anything else is tremendously detrimental to decent PvP. This slow, incremental gearing up process is a PvE concept, and it works there because dungeons have a static difficulty (read: gear requirement) level. You work your way through them and receive better gear so you can defeat the more difficult ones. This doesn't work in PvP because fully geared characters are matched with those that are just starting the grind. It's like as if sometimes Sha of Fear Heroic randomly showed up when your raid is just doing its first tries on Stone Guard Normal.

[Deleted]

If you want to improve and win as a result of skill, play Starcraft II 1vs1 or a shooter. MMO pvp never did and never will be purely or even mostly skill-based.

[Darksoldierr]

I would be fine with the farming part, as i just now got all honor items and everything upgraded, but the amount of fucking CC, burst dmg on CD beyond retarded. Back in TBC or in Wotlk ( didn't played in cata ), if for example, a warrior used his dmg cds, either i kited him or used some defensive cd, now i just flat out die in a stun after stun after stun, like DR dosen't exist anymore.

Just too many aoe, instant, non counterable stuns/fear/whatever out there

Everything is too fast, its like Starcraft 2 compared to Starcraft Brood War, i don't get why Blizz wants to be everything fucking rushed

[Feranor]

If you want to improve and win as a result of skill, play Starcraft II 1vs1 or a shooter. MMO pvp never did and never will be purely or even mostly skill-based.

DAoC is still there, although the last groups have migrated to a freeshard now.

[zotob]

In Rift (the mom game) End level pvp is divided by gear.
In this way just max level (don't remember if 60 or so) will face same gear level people.

[Flaks]

This seems to be a niche mindset. From what I can tell the vast majority of players just wants to win, regardless of whether its their own skill, class/comp, gear, exploits or RNG that causes them to win. And they'll usually use their undeserved advantage to gloat.

I gave a different example on a similar topic a while ago: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ational-sadism

And then people say it's the community's fault that the community is so shitty. Blizzard goes out of it's way to cater to the lowest common denominator of the community (not in skill but in attitude) and expects a healthy PvP community after doing so.

[Anjerith]

Look, I am sorry but if your raid spot is 'one nerf' away from being given to someone else, perhaps you need to relearn your class. Or look for another guild that isn't trying to force you to quit.


You talk about being fine with being outplayed, this is a irreconcilable problem for many pvp players, but the same thing can happen in PVE.

And I also love the 'numbers' people poop out on how much Blizzard makes on this game. I guarantee these numbers never take into account paying their operations costs. You don't just MAKE money constantly if you sell something, you have to pay back the people and organizations that help you create and maintain your product. I recall a few years ago Blizz said that the sub fee pretty much goes directly into paying their CSR's.

[PrairieChicken]

MoP gear becomes powerful way too fast, due to secondary stat added + PVP power + base resil making PVP resil scale greater than past + ILVL jumping faster due to LFR + Upgrades.

The gear system seriously needs great revamp.