Why leaders of Kirin Tor are always human?

[Skytotem]

It's a COUNCIL. The leader is just their representative.

Jaina certainly didn't need a meeting to beat the tar out of Aethas and lock him up.

And just being the representative to other nations would confer a -ton- of influence.

It's a meaningful distinction, perhaps -less- than it was in Antonidas's day when the council was secret, but it's still important.

Saying "Oh, the elves had one guy on the council of six to the humans five + leadership position" is equal just doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes Dalaran's always had a close tie to the elves but they've never been involved in a 'run the place' capacity or even had significant influence past the whole 'well we gotta make a guardian' thing.

[Aquamonkey]

Jaina certainly didn't need a meeting to beat the tar out of Aethas and lock him up.

And just being the representative to other nations would confer a -ton- of influence.

It's a meaningful distinction, perhaps -less- than it was in Antonidas's day when the council was secret, but it's still important.

Saying "Oh, the elves had one guy on the council of six to the humans five + leadership position" is equal just doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes Dalaran's always had a close tie to the elves but they've never been involved in a 'run the place' capacity or even had significant influence past the whole 'well we gotta make a guardian' thing.

It's not 6+leader. Leader counts as 1 of the 6.

If it was leader + his/her 6 counselors, then you may have a point. But that's not how it is. It's Council of 6 with one of them chosen to be their representative.

[Deleted]

sylvanas is an elf lol

[Linkedblade]

Dalaran was a human outpost near Quel'thalas, that happened to be where the high elves began to teach humans the arcane...

[Skytotem]

Dalaran was a human outpost near Quel'thalas, that happened to be where the high elves began to teach humans the arcane...

What? Dalaran is nowhere near Quel'thalas and was founded AFTER they taught humans the arcane...

---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 08:20 PM ----------

It's not 6+leader. Leader counts as 1 of the 6.

If it was leader + his/her 6 counselors, then you may have a point. But that's not how it is. It's Council of 6 with one of them chosen to be their representative.

Except the position exists at all... And Jaina's aforementioned running roughshod over the Sunreavers without checking with the council.

Being on the six is not the same as being 'leader' the other five wield influence but not on the same level. Granted their VOTES all count the same but the leader's the guy all foreign leaders communicate with the rest of dalaran through, they're the most influential.

[Frozenmerc]

1. Not even remotely the same thing.

2. My issue is more with Blizzard making everything about orcs and humans, to a lesser extent elves and dwarves get some attention, but the res of the races might as well not even exist.

3. Yeah but we've had new leaders for the Kirin Tor TWICE in the past few years and both times they've picked the strongest mage... which has been human.

And if you add up the total number of strong lore mages...

You have...

Kael...

and humans.

It's kind of dumb.

Hmmmmmmm... "Orcs and Humans" what was that first warcraft game called again? Gnomes and Trolls? Elves and Undead?



Oh yeah! That's right

[Skytotem]

Hmmmmmmm... "Orcs and Humans" what was that first warcraft game called again? Gnomes and Trolls? Elves and Undead?



Oh yeah! That's right

WC1 was an RTS with three races in it.

WoW is an MMO with over a dozen.

I THINK there might need to be a few adjustments to the way they tell the story.

[Aquamonkey]

And if you add up the total number of strong lore mages...

You have...

Kael...

and humans.

It's kind of dumb.

Med'an was chosen to be the Guradian for the new Council of Tirisfal. He's not human. He's half human, quarter orc, and quarter draenei.

The first Guardian was half human, half elf.

[Skytotem]

Med'an was chosen to be the Guradian for the new Council of Tirisfal. He's not human. He's half human, quarter orc, and quarter draenei.

The first Guardian was half human, half elf.

Did I miss something?

[Aquamonkey]

Except the position exists at all... And Jaina's aforementioned running roughshod over the Sunreavers without checking with the council.

Being on the six is not the same as being 'leader' the other five wield influence but not on the same level. Granted their VOTES all count the same but the leader's the guy all foreign leaders communicate with the rest of dalaran through, they're the most influential.

Considering Jaina is still leader in 5.2, it is either a plot hole or she weaseled some justification for her actions. What she did should have been illegal. Not to mention it is a complete 180 on her position and thinking earlier in the quest chain.

---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 06:57 PM ----------

Did I miss something?

Strong lore mages that aren't humans. Also, Archimond, Velen, and Kil'Jaeden.

[lavafoxx]

recall that we had ONLY old white guys for president up until Obama.

obama is just as much white as he is anything else *biological white mother*

[Haven]

Hmmmmmmm... "Orcs and Humans" what was that first warcraft game called again? Gnomes and Trolls? Elves and Undead?



Oh yeah! That's right

Then what are the other races for?

[Skytotem]

Considering Jaina is still leader in 5.2, it is either a plot hole or she weaseled some justification for her actions. What she did should have been illegal. Not to mention it is a complete 180 on her position and thinking earlier in the quest chain.

---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 06:57 PM ----------


Strong lore mages that aren't humans. Also, Archimond, Velen, and Kil'Jaeden.

1. Or the rules changed since Dalaran got blown to hell in WC3. None of this changes my point, which is that the elves never had huge influence and that being a member of the six is -not the same- as leading Dalaran.

2. Listed Velen earlier. Archimonde and Kil'jaeden are warlocks, they weren't really mages in the story for any important events. They were introduced, then got corrupted. Med'an is a joke and Blizz knows it. (Shamageadin! Derp)

[Galbrei]

It's a human kingdom with a majority of human citizens. They'd probably prefer a human leader too.

[Aquamonkey]

1. Or the rules changed since Dalaran got blown to hell in WC3. None of this changes my point, which is that the elves never had huge influence and that being a member of the six is -not the same- as leading Dalaran.

If the rules did change after WC3, Rhonin was still required to hold a vote to perform military actions.

Aethas helped rebuild and relocate Dalaran. He held the Dalaran shield against Malygos. Aethas convinced the Blood Elves to help them fight Malygos. Aethas convinced the Kirin Tor to admit Blood Elves again, also providing Horde safe haven within the city. Aethas was the deciding vote to send troops to Theramore. He also convinced the Kirin Tor not to support Jaina's vengeance against Orgrimmar afterwards.

Quite a lot for a person who "never had a huge influence."

[Skytotem]

If the rules did change after WC3, Rhonin was still required to hold a vote to perform military actions.

Aethas helped rebuild and relocate Dalaran. He held the Dalaran shield against Malygos. Aethas convinced the Blood Elves to help them fight Malygos. Aethas convinced the Kirin Tor to admit Blood Elves again, also providing Horde safe haven within the city. Aethas was the deciding vote to send troops to Theramore. He also convinced the Kirin Tor not to support Jaina's vengeance against Orgrimmar afterwards.

Quite a lot for a person who "never had a huge influence."

1. Source for -any- of this?

2. Aethas is a milquetoast who can't even control his own people judging by Thalen Songweaver and the Divine Bell thing with that other guy, the Horde/Belfs likely weren't allowed in during wotlk through any skillfull maneuvering on his part but because they were just more bodies to throw at the problem.

[Aquamonkey]

1. Source for -any- of this?

Rhonin to Jaina when she asked for the Kirin Tor to aid Theramore: “I cannot make such a decision alone. You’re going to have to convince others besides me.” (Tides of War)

He then takes her to Dalaran to present her case to the Council.

2. Aethas is a milquetoast who can't even control his own people judging by Thalen Songweaver and the Divine Bell thing with that other guy, the Horde/Belfs likely weren't allowed in during wotlk through any skillfull maneuvering on his part but because they were just more bodies to throw at the problem.

Yep, no skillful maneuvering to gain their entrance when the Silver Covenant's sole purpose was to block it. Aethas himself "had struggled as hard to gain admittance into the Kirin Tor as Vereesa had struggled to forbid it" (ToW). Not only did he get in, he managed to get onto the Council.

[Skytotem]

Rhonin to Jaina when she asked for the Kirin Tor to aid Theramore: “I cannot make such a decision alone. You’re going to have to convince others besides me.” (Tides of War)

He then takes her to Dalaran to present her case to the Council.


Yep, no skillful maneuvering to gain their entrance when the Silver Covenant's sole purpose was to block it. Aethas himself "had struggled as hard to gain admittance into the Kirin Tor as Vereesa had struggled to forbid it" and still managed to get onto the Council (ToW).

1. No the aethas stuff. I want to know where you got the idea for him helping rebuild and relocate Dalaran. I also find it curious that you laud him folding like a house of cards to allow the Kirin Tor to aid theramoore when he's supposed to represent belf interests, and y'know the HORDE in Dalaran.

2. If he had influence he wouldn't have had to struggle against a group that has little to no political or economic power. (They're not even a goddang nation)

Aethas is the short man on the totem pole in Quel'thalas, Lor'themar's short story makes that ABUNDANTLY apparent. Hell, the original draft had him tripping as he stepped out of the portal, he's a whimp.

[Aquamonkey]

1. No the aethas stuff. I want to know where you got the idea for him helping rebuild and relocate Dalaran. I also find it curious that you laud him folding like a house of cards to allow the Kirin Tor to aid theramoore when he's supposed to represent belf interests, and y'know the HORDE in Dalaran.

It's in the manga.

Aethas had nothing to do with the Blood Elves joining the Horde. He was an outcast because of his position in the Kirin Tor. When Aethas went to get their help against Malygos, Theron and Rommath still despised the Kirin Tor for allowing the Blood Elves to be imprisoned in Dalaran. Aethas didn't represent Blood Elf (Qual'Thalas) interests, only those people that chose to follow him and live in Dalaran. He was a broker of peace and neutrality in Dalaran.

2. If he had influence he wouldn't have had to struggle against a group that has little to no political or economic power. (They're not even a goddang nation)

Aethas is the short man on the totem pole in Quel'thalas, Lor'themar's short story makes that ABUNDANTLY apparent. Hell, the original draft had him tripping as he stepped out of the portal, he's a whimp.

Except that the Silver Covenant are members of the Kirin Tor and its leader is Rhonin's wife. She has influence on the Council members and general members of the Kirin Tor. Aethas was an outsider coming to join. You seriously think she would have no power to block Aethas from entering the Kirin Tor?

[Skytotem]

It's in the manga.

Aethas had nothing to do with the Blood Elves joining the Horde.

He was an outcast because of his position in the Kirin Tor.

When Aethas went to get their help against Malygos, Theron and Rommath still despised the Kirin Tor for allowing the Blood Elves to be imprisoned in Dalaran. Aethas didn't represent Blood Elf (Qual'Thalas) interests, only those people that chose to follow him and live in Dalaran.

He was a broker of peace and neutrality in Dalaran.


Except that the Silver Covenant are members of the Kirin Tor and its leader is Rhonin's wife. She has influence on the Council members and general members of the Kirin Tor. Aethas was an outsider coming to join. You seriously think she would have no power to block Aethas from entering the Kirin Tor?

1. Ah, k.

2. I never said he did...? ; I

believe I said that part... short man on the totem pole yeah ;

Which goes to him not having much actual power.

He was also a spineless incompetent


3. In -normal- times? Totally would! In days where they're fighting Malygos and the scourge? Considerably less influence since they need the extra manpower, and then can't just kick him out afterwards cause it'd violate their bizarre sense of morality.

---------- Post added 2013-02-10 at 02:26 AM ----------

Look, I'm not even interested in arguing any of this annoying tangential tripe.

My point is the elves never had the position of leader in Dalaran because it's a primarily human city and they honestly didn't give that much of a care about it back before the scourge wrecked quel'thalas, they were pretty isolationist.

I mean, hell it took the Orcs beating down their doors in WC2 to get them to send more than a token force even after Lothar's bloodline oath thing got called in.