Lor'themar Theron Seeks for Life Blood

[Deleted]

I fail to see why you're making Jaina out as completely insane. Taking power away that could be used by Garrosh sounds pretty good and sound. Her intent to use it against Garrosh to help end the war also sounds pretty sound.

Especially when she does call a truce with Lor'themar at the end of Isle of Thunder storyline.

Jaina's target is Garrosh and Garrosh only and she will do anything to keep new WMDs away from him. Hardly lunacy.

[SherbertLand]

I don't see how any of that is worse than NUKING Theramore.

Theramore was a port town that supplied the troops that razed camp taurajo, not just that, but it was a port town on the footstep of Orgrimmar. It was strategically correct to take out Theramore. And Jaina has gone crazy over the ideal, so she's no worse than all the other insane baddies we've had to put down like rabid dogs. She's trying to steal the immense power of the Thunder King. She can't do good with that.

[kolston]

They are both just gaining power to use against Garrosh, nothing wrong here given the lengths he's went to for victory. That being said, no one knows yet how far Garrosh will go for power, what he ends up doing will likely make their moves look friendly.

[Venziir]

Quick thing! The blood isn't the blood of a Titan, nor did the Thunder King claim the powers of a Titan either. It's the blood and power of Ra-Den a Titanic construct and Watcher ie NOT a titan.

[SherbertLand]

They are both just gaining power to use against Garrosh, nothing wrong here given the lengths he's went to for victory. That being said, no one knows yet how far Garrosh will go for power, what he ends up doing will likely make their moves look friendly.

Jaina went crazy and almost summoned water elementals to destroy Orgrimmar. She also handed over a neutral faction to the Alliance and closed off Dalaran, a place of learning to the Horde. She's bad in every sense of the word. Just because Garrosh is worse doesn't mean every reaction is justified. They have to hold themselves to the same quality of justice that they expect from the Horde.

[kolston]

We're not talking about the purge of Dalaran. We're talking about Jaina and Lor'themar's actions being justifed in the up coming patch, and they absolutely are. Side note though, I don't agree with what happened in Dalaran, but wrong thread, wrong time.

[Scummer]

Theramore was a port town that supplied the troops that razed camp taurajo

Why do people continue to act like the sacking of CT was the most heinous act ever committed in WoW? Better yet why do people use it as an excuse for Garrosh's attempted genocide? The civilians were even allowed to flee.
It was blinking camp. Theramore is (was) a massive city the two are completely incomparable. Even Baine notes that he doesn't really blame the Alliance for it's destruction and that while he's sad his people died he knows that the only person to blame is Garrosh for putting his people in harms way.

And Jaina has gone crazy over the ideal, so she's no worse than all the other insane baddies we've had to put down like rabid dogs.

Explain.
What has she done that is so irredeemable that she's grouped up with the other bad guys in Warcraft.

She's trying to steal the immense power of the Thunder King. She can't do good with that.

She even states what she wants to do with it - take down Garrosh. How is that bad?

Jaina went crazy and almost summoned water elementals to destroy Orgrimmar.

But she didn't.
Attempted and stopped =/= Actually going through with it.

She also handed over a neutral faction to the Alliance and closed off Dalaran, a place of learning to the Horde.

The only person who forced Dalaran into the Alliance was Garrosh when he sent insurgents into the city to abuse it's neutrality - twice.

She's bad in every sense of the word.

No she is not.

[SherbertLand]

Why do people continue to act like the sacking of CT was the most heinous act ever committed in WoW? Better yet why do people use it as an excuse for Garrosh's attempted genocide? The civilians were even allowed to flee.
It was blinking camp. Theramore is (was) a massive city the two are completely incomparable. Even Baine notes that he doesn't really blame the Alliance for it's destruction and that while he's sad his people died he knows that the only person to blame is Garrosh for putting his people in harms way.



Explain.
What has she done that is so irredeemable that she's grouped up with the other bad guys in Warcraft.



She even states what she wants to do with it - take down Garrosh. How is that bad?



But she didn't.
Attempted and stopped =/= Actually going through with it.



The only person who forced Dalaran into the Alliance was Garrosh when he sent insurgents into the city to abuse it's neutrality - twice.



No she is not.

Please forgive me if my sentence structure is lacking. I'm not trying to say the sacking of Ct was in anyway comparable to the nuking of Theramore, I'm trying to say that a city being destroyed by an enemy is a moot point. Theramore was on the footstep of Orgrimmar and we are currently at war. You can't expect the Horde to feel bad for attacking the enemy.

She gave the Kirin Tor to the Alliance instead of trying to maintain neutrality, even though what Garrosh did was terrible, that wasn't reason for Jaina to hand the Kirin Tor over to Varian. No matter what Garrosh may have done, she made the choice.

She does stake that she wants to take down Garrosh with it, but haven't you ever seen a movie? This is the classic downfall of a hero. A tragic event has happened that has shocked Jaina so much that her turned white. She's going to put everything on the line to stop Garrosh, since she probably sees him as the ultimate evil, and in the process, she'll do things that will taint her. In the process of revenge, she'll become a villain. Kind of like Harvey Dent in Batman.

[Justignoreme]

no one reads the dialogue? Lor'themar is taking control of this technology to keep it out of Garrosh' hand and to use as leverage should Garrosh try and attack his people. Jaina using the staff to "bring down the walls of orgrimmar" doesn't mean she's going to obliterate the city, but she's not going to waste time when it comes to removing him from power.

She gave the Kirin Tor to the Alliance instead of trying to maintain neutrality, even though what Garrosh did was terrible, that wasn't reason for Jaina to hand the Kirin Tor over to Varian. No matter what Garrosh may have done, she made the choice.

Betrayed twice by Sunreavers = plenty of reason. And so was Theramore... And the Cenarion Circle should've declared war on the Horde too after hearing about Garrosh' plans for Moonglade

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Theron's motive for fighting Lei Shen to begin with was to find something like this... to use against Garrosh and whatever WMD the guy gets his hands on next.

Not to mention the BElves have a long history of constructs. I was derping around on my Tauren Paladin yesterday and I was being told to kill constructs in Eversong, listening to propaganda from constructs in Silvermoon. Plus constructs are everywhere in Netherstorm and Scryer's Tier.

[Deleted]

She gave the Kirin Tor to the Alliance instead of trying to maintain neutrality, even though what Garrosh did was terrible, that wasn't reason for Jaina to hand the Kirin Tor over to Varian. No matter what Garrosh may have done, she made the choice.

Wrong, she DID tried. She even rejected Varian's plan to kick the Sunreavers out of Dalaran at first.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Wrong, she DID tried. She even rejected Varian's plan to kick the Sunreavers out of Dalaran at first.

It wasn't until the Sunreavers were caught with their hand in the Blue Dragon's cookie jar that she had to take that step.

[khalltusk]

Theramore, It was correct to attack/destroy that place. The methods used were horrible, but I can see why it was seiged and wanted to be destroyed by the horde. It was used as a staging ground for enemy forces to pour into horde territory.

Jainas reaction was understandable but wasnt justified. She only didnt go through with it as she was brought back to her senses. People saying just because she didnt do it means shes not crazy are incorrect. She was fully prepared to go through with it and was in the process of killing thrall until the blue dragon stopped her and reminded her she was acting JUST like arthas. Even now shes showing signs of walking down dark path like him (not the same but similar) Purging dalaran because a small group of sun reavers were acting under garroshs orders and having everyone removed is just one part of her. You can hear it in her voice acting shes super annoyed with the horde. I'm interested in seeing if she calms down or if this is a sign of things to come from her.

[Aquamonkey]

Why do people continue to act like the sacking of CT was the most heinous act ever committed in WoW? Better yet why do people use it as an excuse for Garrosh's attempted genocide? The civilians were even allowed to flee.
It was blinking camp. Theramore is (was) a massive city the two are completely incomparable. Even Baine notes that he doesn't really blame the Alliance for it's destruction and that while he's sad his people died he knows that the only person to blame is Garrosh for putting his people in harms way.

They knew Theramore was going to be attacked ahead of time. They could have evacuated the civilians. Theramore was a valid target being a "military city of no little reputation" (ToW).

Explain.
What has she done that is so irredeemable that she's grouped up with the other bad guys in Warcraft.

She let Arthas slaughter everyone in Stratholme. She didn't even try to stop him. And don't give me any BS about her sex embargo.

But she didn't.
Attempted and stopped =/= Actually going through with it.

"Better yet why do people use it as an excuse for Garrosh's attempted genocide?"

Why are you dismissing her attempted genocide? She tried really hard too.

The only person who forced Dalaran into the Alliance was Garrosh when he sent insurgents into the city to abuse it's neutrality - twice.

Not like she doesn't have spies in the Horde. "Pained, who was in charge of Jaina’s spy network, departed when she heard the news." (ToW)

She could have worked with the Alliance to stop Garrosh without joining the Alliance.

[babo7000]

Please forgive me if my sentence structure is lacking. I'm not trying to say the sacking of Ct was in anyway comparable to the nuking of Theramore, I'm trying to say that a city being destroyed by an enemy is a moot point. Theramore was on the footstep of Orgrimmar and we are currently at war. You can't expect the Horde to feel bad for attacking the enemy.

Fair enough. No one can argue that Theramore didn't make sense, I mean it was a city in enemy territory, that had soldiers supplying aid to the Alliance. The only real gripes people have with it is for moral issues, since Garrosh had no intention of ever having civillians get away.

She gave the Kirin Tor to the Alliance instead of trying to maintain neutrality, even though what Garrosh did was terrible, that wasn't reason for Jaina to hand the Kirin Tor over to Varian. No matter what Garrosh may have done, she made the choice.

Varian asked her to pledge the Kirin Tor to the Alliance, she said no, because the Kirin Tor and Dalaran could stand as an example of neutrality prevailing over petty faction rivalries. This was AFTER she already had Theramore destroyed due to Sunreaver betrayal.

She shouldn't be blamed that the Sunreavers would ONCE AGAIN betray her, and use Dalaran portals to aid the Horde in entering Alliance territory. That is treason, and the second time the Sunreavers committed it.

She even gave the Sunreavers the option to leave, but Aethas, despite knowing that he should take full responsibility for the actions of his people, refuses this, so she is forced to imprison SOME. She only kills those that are openly hostile and fight back.

She does stake that she wants to take down Garrosh with it, but haven't you ever seen a movie? This is the classic downfall of a hero. A tragic event has happened that has shocked Jaina so much that her turned white. She's going to put everything on the line to stop Garrosh, since she probably sees him as the ultimate evil, and in the process, she'll do things that will taint her. In the process of revenge, she'll become a villain. Kind of like Harvey Dent in Batman.

Have you ever read a certain book? It's called Tides of War. Jaina was going down the tragic hero path you are describing, but snapped out of it. She is not going to end up going there again.

Not once has she ever said in MoP her intention is to crush the Horde. Her anger is directed to the orcs, but much more so, Garrosh. Once he is gone, she will lose this hatred, but still maintain a dislike.

People are saying Jaina is going to go villain cause she wants to kill Garrosh, but it's gonna spiral out of control? Guess Varian, Lor, Vol'Jin, Rogers, Tyrande, and every nameless Alliance and even some Horde grunts, are going to end up going insane, just because it can happen.

---------- Post added 2013-02-10 at 06:48 PM ----------

Theramore, It was correct to attack/destroy that place. The methods used were horrible, but I can see why it was seiged and wanted to be destroyed by the horde. It was used as a staging ground for enemy forces to pour into horde territory.

Jainas reaction was understandable but wasnt justified. She only didnt go through with it as she was brought back to her senses. People saying just because she didnt do it means shes not crazy are incorrect. She was fully prepared to go through with it and was in the process of killing thrall until the blue dragon stopped her and reminded her she was acting JUST like arthas. Even now shes showing signs of walking down dark path like him (not the same but similar) Purging dalaran because a small group of sun reavers were acting under garroshs orders and having everyone removed is just one part of her. You can hear it in her voice acting shes super annoyed with the horde. I'm interested in seeing if she calms down or if this is a sign of things to come from her.

This is where you are wrong. We have no idea how much Sunreavers were in on this, but seeing as how eager the Silver Covenent was to imprision Sunreavers, we can only assume they would feel the same. So clearly, a lot of Sunreaver/Silver Covenent had strong ties to the Horde/Alliance, but only one group acted out on it.

Now, to use an example as to why the Sunreavers removal is completely justified.

I'm from Canada, so let's say a group of officials representing the Government secretly lend aid to China (let's say were in wartime), and this ends up getting New York City destroyed. Once this comes out, the entire country of Canada will be heavily criticized for this, and would run a serious risk of getting kicked out of a military faction, lets say NATO.

Now if we were to somehow stay in NATO after this, how likely do you think the USA will be to forgive Canada a second time for lending aid to China at the cost of US casualties? Not very, we would quickly become the enemy.

[Aquamonkey]

Varian asked her to pledge the Kirin Tor to the Alliance, she said no, because the Kirin Tor and Dalaran could stand as an example of neutrality prevailing over petty faction rivalries. This was AFTER she already had Theramore destroyed due to Sunreaver betrayal.

She shouldn't be blamed that the Sunreavers would ONCE AGAIN betray her, and use Dalaran portals to aid the Horde in entering Alliance territory. That is treason, and the second time the Sunreavers committed it.

She even gave the Sunreavers the option to leave, but Aethas, despite knowing that he should take full responsibility for the actions of his people, refuses this, so she is forced to imprison SOME. She only kills those that are openly hostile and fight back.

Plenty of innocent Sunreavers were tortured and killed who didn't fight back. She murders 5 non-hostile Blood Elves before capturing Aethas.

Have you ever read a certain book? It's called Tides of War. Jaina was going down the tragic hero path you are describing, but snapped out of it. She is not going to end up going there again.

Not once has she ever said in MoP her intention is to crush the Horde. Her anger is directed to the orcs, but much more so, Garrosh. Once he is gone, she will lose this hatred, but still maintain a dislike.

People are saying Jaina is going to go villain cause she wants to kill Garrosh, but it's gonna spiral out of control? Guess Varian, Lor, Vol'Jin, Rogers, Tyrande, and every nameless Alliance and even some Horde grunts, are going to end up going insane, just because it can happen.

“Not just on this. You’ve always been strong, my lady. In your power, and in your character,” said Aethas Sunreaver unexpectedly. “Even when tested and tried. And when you faced both an unimaginable horror and an inconceivable temptation—and were perhaps yourself tainted by the effects of the mana bomb—you still chose a path that was fair and just, rather than vengeful and dark. It is, you must admit, unlikely that anything else will ever tempt you so again. And I do not think there stands among us anyone who, were he or she in your place, could have done better. Indeed… we might not have done even half so well.”
“You misunderstand,” she said. “I needed help to not become… something terrible. I could not have done it without Kalecgos.”
“Well then,” said Khadgar, turning to the blue dragon, “we’d best make sure he stays close to your side.”

The Purge is her going down the vengeful path over a minor infraction compared to the destruction of Theramore. She betrays every principle she espoused earlier in the quest The Fate of Dalaran.

[Requiemcliff]

Jaina went crazy and almost summoned water elementals to destroy Orgrimmar. She also handed over a neutral faction to the Alliance and closed off Dalaran, a place of learning to the Horde. She's bad in every sense of the word. Just because Garrosh is worse doesn't mean every reaction is justified. They have to hold themselves to the same quality of justice that they expect from the Horde.

Almost on the first point, where she stopped herself is the point, she didn't do so, and she regretted the decision, it wasn't until the Sunreavers broke her already fragile trust in the Horde that she basically snapped against the Horde, or at least Garrosh's Horde.

Also, Dalaran was considered Alliance for decades, really, it was considered neutral for about...five years, it isn't like it was forever a neutral society...

I mean, I don't want to justify Jainas actions (I honestly kinda am meh on it, because it just makes Varian), but at the same time, she does have legitimate reasons that she is not in the most stable position right now. Really, if they called a truce at the end, and go to speak, hopefully Jaina will be redeemed by the actions.

[Aquamonkey]

Almost on the first point, where she stopped herself is the point, she didn't do so, and she regretted the decision, it wasn't until the Sunreavers broke her already fragile trust in the Horde that she basically snapped against the Horde, or at least Garrosh's Horde.

She didn't stop herself. Thrall fought her vigorously and she tried to kill him too. Then Kalec talked her down. Without external intervention, she would have killed everyone in Orgrimmar. We have laws against attempted crimes, but she wasn't punished, she was rewarded.

Also, Dalaran was considered Alliance for decades, really, it was considered neutral for about...five years, it isn't like it was forever a neutral society...

So that's an excuse to abandon their principles?

I mean, I don't want to justify Jainas actions (I honestly kinda am meh on it, because it just makes Varian), but at the same time, she does have legitimate reasons that she is not in the most stable position right now. Really, if they called a truce at the end, and go to speak, hopefully Jaina will be redeemed by the actions.

It is unlikely the Blood Elves will forgive this second betrayal by the Kirin Tor and 3rd betrayal by the Alliance.

[Imnick]

It is unlikely the Blood Elves will forgive this second betrayal by the Kirin Tor and 3rd betrayal by the Alliance.

It's unlikely that the Kirin Tor will forgive this second betrayal by the Blood Elves :U

You can't have it both ways man!

[Aquamonkey]

It's unlikely that the Kirin Tor will forgive this second betrayal by the Blood Elves :U

You can't have it both ways man!

Spies not working for the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas don't count as representatives of the Blood Elves. Those spies represent Garrosh.

Jaina has spies herself. They don't represent the Alliance, they represent Jaina. The other kingdoms have their own spies.