Why are women so afraid

[Belisarius565]

Yes he did. Unless "then you're bound to find a couple men who's idea of romance is indeed you passed out drunk, getting rammed without your consent." is somehow referring to something else than rape.

He is not condoning rape at all, he is saying something that is actually quite common among people to be drunk and have sex with others when they would not otherwise want to. There are a lot of parties where the "non written goals" are to do drugs/drink/have sex. When something as intimate and personal as sex is involved sometimes with complete strangers I am shocked why people would want to go to such places, and do such things, as they are harmful to yourself and others, even when everything is consensual.

[Deleted]

Ya but the "you can't cry bit" is in separate paragraph for a reason. Listen, if you want to believe that I meant something else than what I'm saying I meant than go ahead. I won't stop you.

Well my apologies, but you have to admit it was easy to mistake to make since the statement was in rape topic and its easy to get emotional in these kinds of discussions.

[Stir]

So this went on for quite a long time without the OP actually being addressed.

The reason why this sort of thing happens is: It's ingrained in our culture. Especially girls are taught, at a very young age, about 'the bad man.' All sorts of stories generally star a 'bad man.' Girls aren't allowed to stay out alone for as long as boys are, because of 'bad men.' Basically, the 'bad man' is the greatest restriction on a girl's life until well in her teens, and movies, books and such do not help diminish any weight of the bad man. Girls are often treated... Softly. They often grow up in a soft environment, with soft colours, soft themes, and soft toys. They grow up expected to be soft. And meanwhile, the Bad Man is always there, in the shadows.
It's not surprising that this is all completely unrealistic, and will breed girls with power issues. Living, growing, becoming adult humans who do not feel as if they have any power, many girls suffer for it, and either become fearful... Or abusive in an effort to claim some power for themselves, so they no longer need to fear the Bad Man. Most girls are able, eventually, to throw off the burden of those wishes, but not all.

Boys, on the other hand, grow up knowing a few things: They must be MEN. And to be MEN they need to be strong. They're not allowed weaknesses, and they're not allowed 'soft.' When a boy wants a barbie-doll for his birthday, he'll not even ask for one... Because it's one of those things that's simply not done. When a boy wanted a pair of pink striped shoes, the boy's parents indulged him... But the other adults in his life were horrified.
Boys need to be strong, powerful, solemn and wise. They may indulge themselves in war-games, but that's it, really. A boy must strive for power and strength. Always.
It's no surprise that this is completely unrealistic, and will breed insecure boys who cannot live up to the standards of what it means to be manly (ironic, because nobody can really explain what 'manliness' entails, really) In a desperate attempt to regain at least something, these boys might prey on the weaker. They might bully until well into their adulthood, or might rape other, weaker people in an attempt to gain any sense of power. Most boys eventually throw off this burden of expectation, but not all.

The boys' childhoods create individuals that enforce the 'Bad Man' stereotype. The girls' childhood does as well (from a different angle), but also creates individuals that are more vulnerable to the Bad Man because of fear.

And here's the fear thing, then: Of course, first and foremost, in the case of rape, the one ultimately responsible for it is the rapist. If anyone feels the need to rape so drastically that they want to actually rape people, they should seek out professional help. No hard feelings, just get help. But fearful behaviour is not helping, and it's certainly not helping protect women. The point is: If you act in a fearful way, you show low self-esteem. You show that you are incapable of defending yourself (and it really doesn't matter whether you can or can't; you can be in a wheelchair and put up a face of certainty and strength, and you'd be much less vulnerable than a body-builder who walks hunched, and shoots their eyes to all directions). By showing such a mentality, you become easy prey, so it's directly harmful to yourself. If you are afraid, then you should walk with quiet confidence. Quiet confidence is the best defense there is.

Let me again state that that doesn't mean that fearful, skittish people bring it on themselves! It means that fearful, skittish people simply aren't protected from assailants. It's still the assailant doing the assault, and to be fearful or skittish is by no means a willing invitation.
But bees do not invite the honey-badger to their nest. The presence of honey draws it to their nest, however. That's not the bees' fault; it's still the badger that makes the decision. Nevertheless, a hive without honey will not attract the badger (though, from the bees' point of view, the badger still needs to be dealt with).

Another effect of this fear is: Males become emotionally damaged. Women who are careful of men because of the 'Bad Man'-stereotype emotionally damage males in their direct environment by rejecting them. Humans are a social species; we need others, we rely on others, and social contact is important. To be rejected is pretty harsh. When it happens a few times, well; it happens... But when, suddenly, a large part of the populace rejects you, you start getting hurt. Emotional health is important, and rejection damages it. It really is as simple as that. To feel as if, at face value, you are taken for a monster is in no way good for one's self-esteem, sense of ego or whathaveyou. It also helps create a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' scenario. Just like it does with minority groups ('[...] are all lying thieves and religious extremists' will eventually cause a larger and larger portion of said group to behave as expected because... Why the hell wouldn't you? Everyone's decided you're no good anyway, so you might as well take what you want and not care about others, right?)

So that pretty much sums up my opinions on the subject. The root lies in a patriarchal culture from way back where women were seen as weak, and pushed into certain roles. These archaic ideas are still noticeable in how our children are raised in fear and insecurity based on gender expectations. And that causes some major problems, with both men AND women. Open fear on a large scale within a society breeds violence because of rejection, and makes violence easier because of self-victimization (also applies to the whole 'Terrurrists!'-thing, by the way).

Feminism isn't the cause for it. Feminism isn't generally anti-male, and the feminists who are anti-male aren't actually feminists to start with. It may sounds like a 'no true scotsman'-argument, but feminism is defined as the movement for gender-equality from a female perspective. Not the movement for female superiority. If anything, this whole chain of causality is something feminism (and masculinism) should probably pay a bit more attention to. I know it's a subject that's growing in societal awareness, but it's far from there yet.

[Arganis]

Some people can't seem to get the idea of misphrasing and clarification.

Thanks Sorrior, I'm glad at least one person gets it. Seriously if I believed rape victims shouldn't cry because they somehow deserved it then I'd come right out and say it. I'm not afraid. But the fact is that's not what I was trying to say, no matter how poorly I might have worded some posts. Believe me or don't, that's your choice.

[Belisarius565]

My post was written as a sarcastic response to another poster, please don't take it out of context.

Well I did not know that sorry, my main point stands in general for the people I am talking about.

[Deleted]

That graph is ridiculous. You cant freely assume that everyone is a rapist. Most of these people are actually falsely accused. The 2 black stats in the lower right is probably when the woman openly admit lying.

When those critizising the graph admit that the graph over-estimates the amount of falsely accused, I don't think you should really make claim like that without backing it up somehow

[Kuntantee]

The ones that do that shit lack empathy.

One needs to have much more deeper problems than simply lacking ability of empathy to rape imo. I could understand a women being careful when alone, especially in nights but that's a fucking truth that some womans abuse their so called "positive discrimination".

[Sorrior]

Well my apologies, but you have to admit it was easy to mistake to make since the statement was in rape topic and its easy to get emotional in these kinds of discussions.

Yeah this topic always gets emotional...one reason i sadly lose my cool with semaphore so often.

Also why i doubt alot of research and only trust statistics from say police organizations/federal government then feel maybe a 1-2% increase is good to play a safe approximation. The issue itself is so emotional that even statistics are VERY easily swayed.

[Arganis]

Well my apologies, but you have to admit it was easy to mistake to make since the statement was in rape topic and its easy to get emotional in these kinds of discussions.

Ya it's fine. I'm all for admitting fault where there is fault. That post sucked, and maybe a lot of posts after that also suck but like you said, people get emotional in these discussions and you can say things or interpret things the wrong way. Basically I'm just taking the long road to say that if people want a better world then they should be better people and I swear that's only point I'm really trying to make.

[Sorrior]

So this went on for quite a long time without the OP actually being addressed.

The reason why this sort of thing happens is: It's ingrained in our culture. Especially girls are taught, at a very young age, about 'the bad man.' All sorts of stories generally star a 'bad man.' Girls aren't allowed to stay out alone for as long as boys are, because of 'bad men.' Basically, the 'bad man' is the greatest restriction on a girl's life until well in her teens, and movies, books and such do not help diminish any weight of the bad man. Girls are often treated... Softly. They often grow up in a soft environment, with soft colours, soft themes, and soft toys. They grow up expected to be soft. And meanwhile, the Bad Man is always there, in the shadows.
It's not surprising that this is all completely unrealistic, and will breed girls with power issues. Living, growing, becoming adult humans who do not feel as if they have any power, many girls suffer for it, and either become fearful... Or abusive in an effort to claim some power for themselves, so they no longer need to fear the Bad Man. Most girls are able, eventually, to throw off the burden of those wishes, but not all.

Boys, on the other hand, grow up knowing a few things: They must be MEN. And the be MEN they need to be strong. They're not allowed weaknesses, and they're not allowed 'soft.' When a boy wants a barbie-doll for his birthday, he'll not even ask for one... Because it's one of those things that's simply not done. When a boy wanted a pair of pink striped shoes, the boy's parents indulged him... But the other adults in his life were horrified.
Boys need to be strong, powerful, solemn and wise. They may indulge themselves in war-games, but that's it, really. A boy must strive for power and strength. Always.
It's no surprise that this is completely unrealistic, and will breed insecure boys who cannot live up to the standards of what it means to be manly (ironic, because nobody can really explain what 'manliness' entails, really) In a desperate attempt to regain at least something, these boys might prey on the weaker. They might bully until well into their adulthood, or might rape other, weaker people in an attempt to gain any sense of power. Most boys eventually throw off this burden of expectation, but not all.

The boys' childhoods create individuals that enforce the 'Bad Man' stereotype. The girls' childhood does as well (from a different angle), but also creates individuals that are more vulnerable to the Bad Man because of fear.

And here's the fear thing, then: Of course, first and foremost, in the case of rape, the one ultimately responsible for it is the rapist. If anyone feels the need to rape so drastically that they want to actually rape people, they should seek out professional help. No hard feelings, just get help. But fearful behaviour is not helping, and it's certainly not helping protect women. The point is: If you act in a fearful way, you show low self-esteem. You show that you are incapable of defending yourself (and it really doesn't matter whether you can or can't; you can be in a wheelchair and put up a face of certainty and strength, and you'd be much less vulnerable than a body-builder who walks hunched, and shoots their eyes to all directions). By showing such a mentality, you become easy prey, so it's directly harmful to yourself. If you are afraid, then you should walk with quiet confidence. Quiet confidence is the best defense there is.

Let me again state that that doesn't mean that fearful, skittish people bring it on themselves! It means that fearful, skittish people simply aren't protected from assailants. It's still the assailant doing the assault, and to be fearful or skittish is by no means a willing invitation.
But bees do not invite the honey-badger to their nest. The presence of honey draws it to their nest, however. That's not the bees' fault; it's still the badger that makes the decision. Nevertheless, a hive without honey will not attract the badger (though, from the bees' point of view, the badger still needs to be dealt with).

Another effect of this fear is: Males become emotionally damaged. Women who are careful of men because of the 'Bad Man'-stereotype emotionally damage males in their direct environment by rejecting them. Humans are a social species; we need others, we rely on others, and social contact is important. To be rejected is pretty harsh. When it happens a few times, well; it happens... But when, suddenly, a large part of the populace rejects you, you start getting hurt. Emotional health is important, and rejection damages it. It really is as simple as that. To feel as if, at face value, you are taken for a monster is in no way good for one's self-esteem, sense of ego or whathaveyou. It also helps create a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' scenario. Just like it does with minority groups ('[...] are all lying thieves and religious extremists' will eventually cause a larger and larger portion of said group to behave as expected because... Why the hell wouldn't you? Everyone's decided you're no good anyway, so you might as well take what you want and not care about others, right?)

So that pretty much sums up my opinions on the subject. The root lies in a patriarchal culture from way back where women were seen as weak, and pushed into certain roles. These archaic ideas are still noticeable in how our children are raised in fear and insecurity based on gender expectations. And that causes some major problems, with both men AND women. Open fear on a large scale within a society breeds violence because of rejection, and makes violence easier because of self-victimization (also applies to the whole 'Terrurrists!'-thing, by the way).

Feminism isn't the cause for it. Feminism isn't generally anti-male, and the feminists who are anti-male aren't actually feminists to start with. It may sounds like a 'no true scotsman'-argument, but feminism is defined as the movement for gender-equality from a female perspective. Not the movement for female superiority. If anything, this whole chain of causality is something feminism (and masculinism) should probably pay a bit more attention to. I know it's a subject that's getting growing in societal awareness, but it's far from there yet.

I will add that now while boys are still raised with that perspective in many ways we are also punished and essentially rejected by society for it. I went through most of my childhood being ostracized by the adults in my life parents aside.

We are also still raised with this sorta "must look after women and work to earn money" mentality which just isn;t how the world works anymore and that aslo causes some problems for us.

All in all we're in a pretty crazy place right now gender wise and only time will tell how it will work out.

[Belisarius565]

So this went on for quite a long time without the OP actually being addressed...

I disagree, the problem lies in the person, not with any culture (though the acceptance of a lot of horrible behaviors helps continue it), or hardships that someone has gone through. To do harm to someone and for especially rape, has no justification, and there is no excuse to have people think more of that man or woman. Be as individuals, make a stand that you will not do harm to others even when everything in your life is bad otherwise, and you have been hurt by so many other people yourselves.

[Cthulhu 2020]

That graph is ridiculous. You cant freely assume that everyone is a rapist. Most of these people are actually falsely accused. The 2 black stats in the lower right is probably when the woman openly admit lying.

You can't dismiss statistics with your own personal speculations because you don't like them.

[Stir]

I disagree, the problem lies in the person, not with any culture (though the acceptance of a lot of horrible behaviors helps continue it), or hardships that someone has gone through. To do harm to someone and for especially rape, has no justification, and there is no excuse to have people think more of that man or woman. Be as individuals, make a stand that you will not do harm to others even when everything in your life is bad otherwise, and you have been hurt by so many other people yourselves.

I am sorry, but our species simply isn't one of individuals. True; we have billions of individuals, but individuals are made through culture. How we respond to cultural indoctrination is inborn, and we're generally unaware of how and why we respond and develop in light of these cultural things, but we can be aware of what the standards within our cultures are, and how they affect us, not as individuals, but as a tribe or even species.
Edit for clarity: My post did not justify anything. What it did was explain its origins, and maybe give some light as to where it went wrong and how we can fix things for a lot of people (though not all) to come.

[jazen]

women are not afraid of men in particular but men in general....Most likely a particular man will not rape or mug a woman, but men in general have a propensity for violence and rape. It's sad, as a general rule, male upbringing reinforces the strong and agressive tendencies that lead to violence and rape.

[Arganis]

I will add that now while boys are still raised with that perspective in many ways we are also punished and essentially rejected by society for it. I went through most of my childhood being ostracized by the adults in my life parents aside.

We are also still raised with this sorta "must look after women and work to earn money" mentality which just isn;t how the world works anymore and that aslo causes some problems for us.

All in all we're in a pretty crazy place right now gender wise and only time will tell how it will work out.

I'd like to add to that by saying Females do have some benefits (if not many) in society that males, most of the time, don't. Going from the basis that you're an decent looking girl, then usually there's a level of isolation and loneliness that by nature you'll never experience. 40 year old virgin that's a decent looking girl? I think not. Woman by nature attract attention and many males will make great efforts to be kind and supportive in order make a female care for them. It just happens naturally and the same thing can't be said for men. When you're a man the expectations are much higher and if you fail then you can very well end up with nothing at all. I know some guys that have gone most of their lives without so much as getting the time of day from woman (and no I'm not talking about me ) and that creates a host of other problems as well as a huge levels of animosity. Humans are social creatures but it's the purpose of all life to multiply and to be deemed unfit for such things, for whatever reason, is one of the worst things that can happen to living creature.

[Buttfear]

i have also seen women cross the road when approaching then cross back down the block to avoid walking past me and other men.

I have never had this problem, but I'm a normal looking white guy that dresses decently.

I have noticed women seem to avoid black men, or anyone that looks "thuggish".

[jazen]

That graph is ridiculous. You cant freely assume that everyone is a rapist. Most of these people are actually falsely accused. The 2 black stats in the lower right is probably when the woman openly admit lying.

His graph, although crude, is proportionally correct. Most rapists are never arrested, and those that are, many are not convicted. The graph isn't saying that all people are rapists, his graph represents rapists only.

[Veyne]

There's something terribly pretentious about being afraid of "rape" for no specific reason. Most woman aren't half as desirable as they think themselves to be.

Rape is rarely about looks. Rape is rarely about sexual desire. Rape is almost always about asserting power and dominance.

[Delanath]

The issue itself is so emotional that even statistics are VERY easily swayed.

You keep saying stuff like this. When I see cop-outs like this I'm used to dealing with global warming deniers or anti-vaccinationists. Look at the quality of the study, not where it came it from. If you can poke enough holes in the methods of the study to call into doubt the conclusions then you may have a leg to stand on. As it stands right now you're in essence saying, "I don't like the outcome of those studies, but these over here I like so I trust them more." That's not how a logical argument works my friend.

[Arganis]

I have never had this problem, but I'm a normal looking white guy that dresses decently.

I have noticed women seem to avoid black men, or anyone that looks "thuggish".

I'm probably gonna open a can of worms and have a bunch of people say "I knew it" but sometimes stereotypes can be helpful. I was once walking down the street and saw this black man who was acting sorta thuggish (and in retrospective actually pretty erratic) and I thought to myself I should change streets, but then that voice in my head said "that's just racist." So i kept on walking and when I got to his level he punched me right out. So ya the conclusion isn't all blacks are thugs but sometimes there's stereotypes for a reason, just use your gut.