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  1. #121
    Pandaren Monk shokter's Avatar
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    This is not new. If you are a 10m guild never settle for a roster of 10. Keep 11-13 players and rotate them in. Yes it sucks during progression when not everyone gets all first kills but it will pay off in spades towards the end of patch cycle when 1-2 people inevitably disappear. I've never raided a whole tier with the exact same team...someone will almost always leave. From what I've seen playing since BC is that this is part for the course.
    "Brevity is...wit"

  2. #122
    I am Murloc! Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Right. I said this. it's completely normal. Most people just want to arse about and get some gear without needing to research or spend ages learning lots of different stuff. What's wrong with that?
    There is LFR for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Then how come the clear rate isn't where it would be if blizzard catered to the average? Why do HC modes exist at all?
    Because HC is even harder? HC mode is pretty much where it should be, only the top few % get to kill the last boss on HC. I admit normal can be toned down a little, only a little though, as to be honest normal is pretty easy, if you are still having problem with normal may be there is something you should look into and care about. Blizzard already said Normal is more for a "organised and communicated group" (can't remember where from, I think is from one of the LFR bitch post), if the group just wanna arse around and get free loot handed to them, I do think normal is not catered for them, LFR is what they should be looking into.

    From what I think in my opinion:

    LFR - people arsed around wanting free gear
    Normal - organised, communicated group, that work out the tactics for the fights
    Heroics - Unforgiving mechanics that needs to be executed correctly for the kills

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    They want to. But even with all the help and gear they get they just can't seem to be able to do it. You can explain the rotations and priorities a million times, there comes a point where the player actually has to DO it.

    One example would be one of our warriors who does Tank DPS (~50K) with item level 493.

    It sucks when attendance is low and you are being forced to take people like that with you, despite their numbers.

    And then there's movement. 50Wipes on Blade lord HC were only due to the same 5 people constantly movement failing. There really isn't much you can do about it, if you're not in the place to swap them out. :/

    Guess thats where the frustration for a lot of folks comes from and it's only understandable that they want their easy content back.

    Blizzard failed hard in Wrath and DS. They should never have dropped the difficulty in the first place. Now peeps got a taste of easy epixx and when you take that away again, there will be QQ.
    That is a big problem, you make things too easy then players think they are really good raiders then the next content is normal difficulty which is 30% harder than they are used to. The QQ starts and talks of content being too difficult. You get too much nerfing and content overall becoming easier then the overall talent base starts to decline making it more difficult to recruit a average player let alone a good player. I am sure that is part of the reason players will be able to raid cross realm next patch, trying to help some bad servers.

    You give someone a 30% buff and they are happy then the next tier with no buff becomes difficult for them. People quit because they cant clear content without a buff and then blizzard starts to get blamed for tuning things too high. If they left things alone people would once again get used to the difficulty and get better or quit. Either way the game as a whole would have a higher talent base.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 08:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    You're taking the elitist approach towards things. That's how PvPers did it in the past. Now, bgs are full of bots and participation in arena has gotten so bad that previous 2200+ players have a hard time getting past 2k. If we've learned anything, its that a larger pool of players is good for everyone, even your own raid group if someone decides to flake out. To foster that larger group, you need to make at least the normal modes accessible to people of all skill levels.
    A larger group doesnt mean more good players. This is becoming the case everyday in wow, trying to find people who even know their class or when to use cds, reforge for different fights, different specs for fights is hard and getting harder. There are plenty of bad players out there looking to raid but very few raiders.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    This is all rather odd to me. I have been playing since TBC and made a conscious decision to raid. Then i decided what kind of raiding and went that route. I knew that if i chose casual i would be struggling and killing bosses rather slowly like my friends i had ran with before. I raided with a progression based guild and cleared everything months before my friends did. It was accepted that being in a casual guild meant slow progression and the people in those guilds were fine with that because they knew that. Now people want to clear content they dont have the skill for or the patience for. Why? Logging into a game is to just play a game right? To do anything further is based on your motivation and your goals.

    The people in your guild will tell you what goals to set by their numbers. So by looking at the players in your guild you know what progression you are most likely going to see just like a team in sports, what you have is what you have. Now if you want to replace some of the bad players then your progression would change but otherwise it doesnt. That is your choice, just yours, you are making a decision that progression isnt as important. So why is progression important if you just raid with friends you know arent that good? Why should you progress the same as others putting in more effort?
    I think what you are missing is that the bar that separates casual vs. progression was moved this expansion. The people who were in "upper level casual" or "low-end progressive" are not able to progress like they had previously. This change is causing problems with getting people motivated, recruiting, keeping raiders actively raiding. At least, that seems to be the message I am picking up from the OP and some of the others here.

    I myself have never been in a hardcore guild, because frankly I don't feel like devoting all of my free time to a game, but that doesn't mean I am a drooling idiot either. I would venture to say that most fights come down to time. The problem is, the time spent during raids and outside of raids in order to progress has risen dramatically. This is something that worries those who lean toward casual play.

    I feel you have fallen victim to the notion that casual = bad player, not casual = someone who can only invest limited amount of time. I don't think anyone wants loot handed to them and the bosses to be faceroll. We would appreciate it if content was looked at and adjusted so that the AVERAGE group can progress. I realize that average can change and I'm not here to discuss how one finds the average, but it obviously isn't at that point now.

    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    That is a big problem, you make things too easy then players think they are really good raiders then the next content is normal difficulty which is 30% harder than they are used to. The QQ starts and talks of content being too difficult. You get too much nerfing and content overall becoming easier then the overall talent base starts to decline making it more difficult to recruit a average player let alone a good player. I am sure that is part of the reason players will be able to raid cross realm next patch, trying to help some bad servers.

    You give someone a 30% buff and they are happy then the next tier with no buff becomes difficult for them. People quit because they cant clear content without a buff and then blizzard starts to get blamed for tuning things too high. If they left things alone people would once again get used to the difficulty and get better or quit. Either way the game as a whole would have a higher talent base.
    You do realize that the nerfing of current raiding tiers has been happening for years now, right? It has not been a problem in the past, why would it start now? You seem to think the causal players have inflated egos if they start killing bosses, this is not normally the case. If someone truly is a step above the rest, they typically move on to better guilds.
    Last edited by Promark; 2013-02-15 at 08:47 PM.
    to: preposition; used as a function word to indicate position, connection, extent, relation ~ too: adverb; also, very, excessively, so

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    All I am doing is looking at how people actually behave and making (the not amazingly radical, surely?) point that maybe blizzard should be designing around what they have as a playerbase.

    Most players don't research, don't care, aren't that bothered, want to down bosses quite quickly etc etc

    Now, you can make the argument that they shouldn't - and that's fine. But, absent some sort of in game teaching tool it's an argument that's going nowhere. normal modes are incredibly difficult, HC modes almost impossible. I had some friends come to wow as a sortof group for the start of mop. Their first ever raid boss was stone guards.

    Which is taking the piss, frankly. They levelled to 90 easy enough, though it took some time. They geared up in the exmode HC's and scenarios. I gave some pointers about raiding (I ain't great but I know some stuff) - off they went to their first ever raid and they proceeded to get completely rolled on the first boss in MSV for a few hours with no hope of getting anywhere and then they jacked it in. most of them are still about, doing dailies and the odd BG and stuff.

    The diconnect between raiding and the rest of the game is massive. Theres two ways to narrow it - one is to make the raids for the playerbase blizzard actually has and nerf stuff, the other is to teach people how to play the game as they level up.

    But what you suggest? The "magically learn what to do and want to wipe endlessly" thing - it doesn't happen. it never will.
    Taking advice from someone who wants to hang with friends and drink over getting better and you are suprised they didnt do well? Their first time playing the game ever and you expected them to do what? They probably werent gemmed, reforged, specced correctly or even understood half the mechanics but in your opinion they should have cleared how many bosses? LFR.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    There is LFR for that.
    Fair point. it'd be a shame to get pushed out of the raiding scene after so many years, but if that's what blizzard wants to do to anyone not progression minded, that'll be how it is I guess.

    Because HC is even harder? HC mode is pretty much where it should be, only the top few % get to kill the last boss on HC. I admit normal can be toned down a little, only a little though, as to be honest normal is pretty easy, if you are still having problem with normal may be there is something you should look into and care about. Blizzard already said Normal is more for a "organised and communicated group" (can't remember where from, I think is from one of the LFR bitch post), if the group just wanna arse around and get free loot handed to them, I do think normal is not catered for them, LFR is what they should be looking into.

    From what I think in my opinion:

    LFR - people arsed around wanting free gear
    Normal - organised, communicated group, that work out the tactics for the fights
    Heroics - Unforgiving mechanics that needs to be executed correctly for the kills
    It's kind of interesting - i'm looking at the stats - only 30% of raiding guilds have cleared normals this tier. But when I point this out it gets framed like it's my problem. (Which it is, I'm one of the 70% still plodding through normal modes) but it's not just my problem. It seems to be a lot of people are struggling.

    I'm just asking why you'd have it like that.

  7. #127
    I am Murloc! Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Promark View Post
    I feel you have fallen victim to the notion that casual = bad player, not casual = someone who can only invest limited amount of time. I don't think anyone wants loot handed to them and the bosses to be faceroll. We would appreciate it if content was looked at and adjusted so that the AVERAGE group can progress. I realize that average can change and I'm not here to discuss how one finds the average, but it obviously isn't at that point now.
    Except, by now, with probably more geared, and if they still find normal too hard, then it is no longer casual, it is bad.

    If you are decent, even raiding 1 night a week, you should at least cleared normal by now, and possibly a few HCs. Talking about time = casual? There are a few groups that I know of only raid 1 night a week and had cleared 9HC, so even if time is a factor, if they haven't even cleared normal by now, even raid 1 night a week, that is bad.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Then go talk about the game being too hard, anyone with a brain being a elitist, drink beer and as you said it isnt a priority to progress, go be with your friends. People want to get rewarded for being bad and putting no effort whatsoever into it, sounds like the welfare program.

    Every point you attempt to make is just someone standing there with their hand out like a homeless person on the side of the street. You want the gear that people put effort to get while you sit there drinking your beer on the side of the road asking for everything for free. How do you know the clear rate isnt what blizzard wanted or expected? Do you think they dont know that the overall talent base of players in wow is bad? Like you said the majority of players like you. No effort or motivation to improve and if you had taken the time to write all of this you could have learned your class in that time but who wants to do something elitist like that?
    Can you respond to anything without making gross assumptions about people and lobbing insults? Like I said earlier. What do you gain from being rude?

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    A larger group doesnt mean more good players. This is becoming the case everyday in wow, trying to find people who even know their class or when to use cds, reforge for different fights, different specs for fights is hard and getting harder. There are plenty of bad players out there looking to raid but very few raiders.
    A larger group, on average, will mean more good players. Thats just how it works. Lets look at SC2 vs Broodwar. There were plenty of players good at Broodwar, but when SC2 came around and increased the pool of players, there was an explosion of top tier talent, some who never even played RTS competitively in the past. SC2 arguably dumbed down the game with automine and simple macro as well. Its just an example, but in most cases, having a large pool of raiders to choose from is almost always never a bad thing.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Taking advice from someone who wants to hang with friends and drink over getting better and you are suprised they didnt do well? Their first time playing the game ever and you expected them to do what? They probably werent gemmed, reforged, specced correctly or even understood half the mechanics but in your opinion they should have cleared how many bosses? LFR.
    If blizzard designed the raids for the players who they actually have on average, then yes, you should indeed be able to clear the bulk of normals without knowing what you are doing.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Promark View Post
    I think what you are missing is that the bar that separates casual vs. progression was moved this expansion. The people who were in "upper level casual" or "low-end progressive" are not able to progress like they had previously. This change is causing problems with getting people motivated, recruiting, keeping raiders actively raiding. At least, that seems to be the message I am picking up from the OP and some of the others here.

    I myself have never been in a hardcore guild, because frankly I don't feel like devoting all of my free time to a game, but that doesn't mean I am a drooling idiot either. I would venture to say that most fights come down to time. The problem is, the time spent during raids and outside of raids in order to progress has risen dramatically. This is something that worries those who lean toward casual play.

    I feel you have fallen victim to the notion that casual = bad player, not casual = someone who can only invest limited amount of time. I don't think anyone wants loot handed to them and the bosses to be faceroll. We would appreciate it if content was looked at and adjusted so that the AVERAGE group can progress. I realize that average can change and I'm not here to discuss how one finds the average, but it obviously isn't at that point now.
    The ironic part is that hardcore guilds dont spend as much time in the game as casuals. We put in time at the beginning of a tier or patch, bosses are downed or changes are made in the raid group. Bosses are downed, content is put on farm, and then there is a alt run once a week to gear the melee's range alts because range is almost always better especially at the beginning of progression. Then there is the one night a week raid to farm gear for people who still need it. 2night a week and one you can skip if you have your gear and the alt run you can skip if you dont feel like it. Yes, some are on a lot but that is because they mess around doing other things but as far as time in game, progression raiding, at least in our guild spend A LOT less time in the game.

    I have friends who raid casual and they are raiding 3-4 nights a week still and are only 10/16 normal. They wipe alot and are on trying to recruit all the time. I log in and raid and then get back off. I show up on sunday for melee alt run so i can gear a alt for fun and that is my time in wow.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Can you respond to anything without making gross assumptions about people and lobbing insults? Like I said earlier. What do you gain from being rude?
    This is just the style of supposedly hardcore raiders. Its very difficult to find a raid group filled with people that have a positive attitude.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    A larger group, on average, will mean more good players. Thats just how it works. Lets look at SC2 vs Broodwar. There were plenty of players good at Broodwar, but when SC2 came around and increased the pool of players, there was an explosion of top tier talent, some who never even played RTS competitively in the past. SC2 arguably dumbed down the game with automine and simple macro as well. Its just an example, but in most cases, having a large pool of raiders to choose from is almost always never a bad thing.
    There's just this toxic environment in WoW to pretty much hatefully exclude and persecute new people. It's why raiding now, and always has had abysmally low attendance. I mean, look at people like isadorr. His initial knee jerk reaction to things is to lob hate-filled insults, and to generally treat his fellow players like garbage for having opinions about things. and for what? What's the point? What is gained out of being like that?

  14. #134
    I am Murloc! Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It's kind of interesting - i'm looking at the stats - only 30% of raiding guilds have cleared normals this tier. But when I point this out it gets framed like it's my problem. (Which it is, I'm one of the 70% still plodding through normal modes) but it's not just my problem. It seems to be a lot of people are struggling.

    I'm just asking why you'd have it like that.
    I did say I do think normal mode could be toned down a little, especially Stone Guard, 1st boss at the very least should be highly accessible, however as you progress the bosses should get harder and harder, by HoF difficulties should stay where it is.

    I can see your reasoning of "average", but may be Blizzard don't use pure % as their average? May be they are looking at "average group that tries and learn tactics and progress", "average group that min/max", average group that "research into boss with fansites/videos"? No one will know except Blizzard, but if they have clearly definite a difficulties for people that don't care and want to mess around, and a tier that involve organisation and communication, just because the clear rate is 30%, doesn't they should just also make normal mode "doable when you just want to mess around" as well, after all, just like Normal > Heroic has a defined change in difficulty, there should also be one for LFR > Normal as well, don't you think?

  15. #135
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    It's kind of interesting - i'm looking at the stats - only 30% of raiding guilds have cleared normals this tier. But when I point this out it gets framed like it's my problem. (Which it is, I'm one of the 70% still plodding through normal modes) but it's not just my problem. It seems to be a lot of people are struggling.
    No matter how you tune the raids, you will have peeps that struggle. What clearance percentage would you suggest? 50%? 60%? 80%?
    Where does Encounter granularity fit in? (Aka this encounter is not targeted at your Guild)

    Madness 25 NORMAL was only killed by 58%. And thats after nearly a year and with a 35% (?) nerf.

    I agree that the Enrage timer on Garalon is too tight for a normal mode. Should be at least a minute longer.
    But that ugly SOB Bug is designed as a cockblock before you get to the Tier-Bosses (Which are all easier than him lol).
    It's a cheap move to drag out progression.

  16. #136
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    While not falling apart there is less and less wiggle room with every person that stops playing. I have a feeling that old raiders are not being replaced by new raiders, the group is dwindling in size / playerbase. What all these other players are doing tho is utterly beyond me, they can't all be pvp people? LFR isn't really raiding and it's not really training any new raiders either, atleast I don't think so. It might be very server dependent but it's getting harder and harder to find replacements and new people that wants to do actual raiding. Eventually it might just run out of steam.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    No matter how you tune the raids, you will have peeps that struggle. What clearance percentage would you suggest? 50%? 60%? 80%?
    Where does Encounter granularity fit in? (Aka this encounter is not targeted at your Guild)

    Madness 25 NORMAL was only killed by 58%. And thats after nearly a year and with a 35% (?) nerf.

    I agree that the Enrage timer on Garalon is too tight for a normal mode. Should be at least a minute longer.
    But that ugly SOB Bug is designed as a cockblock before you get to the Tier-Bosses (Which are all easier than him lol).
    It's a cheap move to drag out progression.
    Fair comment, really. It's like the protectors in toes. Struggling buggery in hof, then walk in and one or two shot first boss next raid. I actually thought it was a slightly complicated trash pack the first time. ;p

    What is true is that this tier is seeing complaints over and above previous tiers. Theres even a "wtf patch already???" thread somewhere because people in general don't seem to be done with T14 yet by any stretch.

  18. #138
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    No guilds left this patch, mine has completely been obliterated - most of the team had the one year + beta and after playing beta and me coming back a month before expansion, they said there was no way they would play this expansion. Now I am on the free week and I see no one. Maybe everyone left server but it's not looking good.

    No fun at all Blizz.

  19. #139
    Pandaren Monk shokter's Avatar
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    This is probably OT to the thread but very relevant to the discussion going on regarding Casual raiders and Normal modes. It is my observation that very often what sets back less than hardcore groups is not exactly the difficulty of particualr fights , rather the setbacks and difficulties that arise from low attendance, players disappearing, and perhaps poor progression planning (ie doing too much MSV farming because a few players are vocal about wanting item x to drop when really they should be concentrating on progression)

    My group just recently cleared all Normal modes, and there wasn't really any one fight that blocked us (our last two kills, Lei Shei and Sha for example took 4 pulls each) but more us getting in our own way by not focusing on efficient progression path and/or player attrition. Many people seem to think anyone who has not cleared normal raids with at least a few "bad" players where the reality is many these groups are likely just not well organized/motivated etc.
    "Brevity is...wit"

  20. #140
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    I did say I do think normal mode could be toned down a little, especially Stone Guard, 1st boss at the very least should be highly accessible, however as you progress the bosses should get harder and harder, by HoF difficulties should stay where it is.
    Are you serious?!
    Stone Guard was and is piss easy. All you need is tanks that know how to taunt. Even the HC variant is very easy... I'd argue it's easier than the normals due to the possibility of outgearing it.

    Only Elegon and Garalon really stand out and both mainly due to strict enrage timers. Loosen those and most raids won't have a problem.

    Struggling buggery in hof, then walk in and one or two shot first boss next raid. I actually thought it was a slightly complicated trash pack the first time. ;p
    I know the feeling. We did them on Elite right away. ToES was VERY disappointing. Most of all that 16 minute Sha snoozefest. ... What a challenge to not fall asleep...

    Theres even a "wtf patch already???" thread somewhere because people in general don't seem to be done with T14 yet by any stretch.
    Well 70% obviously aren't ready, so I understand the complaints.

    Personally I can't wait for 5.2 because I find Heroic modes quite annoying. It just bugs me that a boss I progressed and defeated is now meaner because someone flipped a switch <_<

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