Jab Nerfed Again :D

[Deleted]

We don't do jab-jab-uplift because wer're total dumb and this is so funny.

We do it because, let's face it, we only have 1 way to aoe heal, and 1 chi dumper

Lots of people ask better range chi generation and i agree, but once again i really think we ALSO need new(s) chi dumper

One of the level 30 talents should probably be baseline and cost chi ( i remember when chi wave was only MW baseline...), or they should just make talent 30 cost/cd different wheither your are WW, bm or mw.

Because please, we must be stupid, be please explain how to heal on empress, stone guard, or other heavy aoe heal fight without spaming uplift and with a 30sec cd chi burst

[Bartolo]

I was wondering why there isn't more people thinking that uplift should be de-coupled from ReM, a CoH-like spell but limited by the available chi. I always found it stupid that uplift was healing only people with ReM (hence those who are already 'safe', getting a heal) and not those at lower health.

[Felade]

I was going through a few interesting glyphs and abilities and here's some thoughts:

Jab currently costs 3.9% of base mana on live. That means your Uplifts cost 2 Jabs, or 7.8% mana. The glyph for Uplift actually makes Uplift cost less mana than a Jab-Jab-Uplift combo. Theoretically, on live if you feel like you must spam Jab-Jab-Uplift all the time, it might actually make sense to glyph Uplift. The only issue is where to dump your Chi then. I suppose you lose some healing from the Jabs but its pretty negligible. With the 5.2 cost, the glyph actually makes Uplift significantly cheaper than Jab-Jab-Uplift (6% versus 9% for Jab-Jab-Uplift).

I favor Intellect in my gemming, enchanting, and food/flask, and I'm telling you I just don't need to Uplift as often (basically, when the guide says "spirit until satisfactory mana regeneration" I say "7k seems like a bit much"). I can't really afford many extra Jabs with that setup, but I find I just don't have to Jab as often either.

I was wondering why there isn't more people thinking that uplift should be de-coupled from ReM, a CoH-like spell but limited by the available chi.

Why not glyph Uplift then?

[Bartolo]

Why not glyph Uplift then?

You still need ReM on targets with glyphed Uplift

[Felade]

You still need ReM on targets with glyphed Uplift

Sure, but in general, that doesn't seem to be a huge issue for most folks. I'll agree its an issue, but in WOW raiding generally the moments where you REALLY need to spam healing on people what's more important is overall throughput, not who in particular gets the heal (because everyone takes damage in relatively equal amounts).

[Tatuin]

On blizz internal build Glyphed Uplift had its mana cost increased wiht 21%

[Biske]

what other class need to use that much of a resource to get 1 of their combopoints/chi/holy power?

Not only that, but holy power feels more like a reward where you're granted a free heal every now and then, while if you're not gaining chi, you're not going to be healing very well at all, to say the least. Got my monk to 90, did a raid, and went like "well, back to paladin".

[Teriz]

After running this in PTR, the rotation is ridiculous and all over the place, but it's fun as hell to play as.

[Tatuin]

After running this in PTR, the rotation is ridiculous and all over the place, but it's fun as hell to play as.

Pls explain more how you mean rotation

[rudeLS]

You still need ReM on targets with glyphed Uplift

Not to mention, glyphing Uplift also prevents you from generating Mana Tea stacks, which is overall a huuuuge net mana loss, even though you save some by taking out the jabs.

[Felade]

Not to mention, glyphing Uplift also prevents you from generating Mana Tea stacks, which is overall a huuuuge net mana loss, even though you save some by taking out the jabs.

Well, if you just sit on your Chi the whole time, maybe. Again, Jabbing to heal is mana negative; it is on live, it will be moreso in 5.2. As long as you're still spending the Chi you get from ReM and Soothing in an efficient manner, you'll still get tons of Mana Tea stacks.

Its also not a huuuuuge amount of mana, its a specific amount of mana that we can make mathematical arguments about.

4 Chi = 1 Stack of Mana Tea
1 Stack of Mana Tea = 4% Mana.
4 Chi = 4% Mana
1 Chi = 1% Mana

That means on live, every time you Jab you lose 2.9% mana (3.9%-1%), and in 5.2 you'll lose 3.5% mana (4.5%-1%) every time you Jab. With the glyph you only lose that 6% mana you spent on the Uplift. On live, once you consider Mana Tea, Jab-Jab-Uplift is sliiiightly cheaper (5.8% is more efficient than 6%). In 5.2, the glyph wins out, but not by much (6% is more efficient than 7%). It also wins out in reliability; you never have to worry about not having enough Chi to Uplift again.

[rudeLS]

Well, if you just sit on your Chi the whole time, maybe. Again, Jabbing to heal is mana negative; it is on live, it will be moreso in 5.2. As long as you're still spending the Chi you get from ReM and Soothing in an efficient manner, you'll still get tons of Mana Tea stacks.

My point was simply that you can't just glyph Uplift and fix the Jab mana-sink. You're still going to be spending mana on ReM, SooM, and now Uplift as well, with a lot less reliability in your Mana Tea generation and consumption. Take into account that we're also losing an entire tier of Chi spending talents, if generating Chi wasn't the issue, spending it would probably become one.

[Felade]

My point was simply that you can't just glyph Uplift and fix the Jab mana-sink. You're still going to be spending mana on ReM, SooM, and now Uplift as well, with a lot less reliability in your Mana Tea generation and consumption. Take into account that we're also losing an entire tier of Chi spending talents, if generating Chi wasn't the issue, spending it would probably become one.

Remember, you spend mana to gain Chi; all of our spells actually cost mana, just some are hidden behind the Chi mechanic. If you assume Jab as your Chi generator, Uplift costs 2x the mana cost of Jab to cast. You seem to think the two are separate. I just proved that glyphed uplift is actually cheaper in 5.2 than Jab-Jab-Uplift. You'll notice I also mentioned the spending issue. But that suddenly leaves us a boatload of Chi for single target healing (where folks keep saying Monks are terrible again because of unreliable Chi generation). You don't lose anything from glyphing Uplift (because its actually cheaper than Jabbing for Chi, then using Mana Tea, in 5.2), so that's a wash. Now, all the Chi you get from Soothing and ReM can be spent on single target.

I'm not necessarily recommending the glyph, just pointing out if you feel you need to spam Uplift, but don't want to Jab anymore since its nerfed, and are worried about unreliable Chi generation from our other Chi generators, that the glyph actually makes it cheaper *even when you consider Mana Tea*.

[rudeLS]

Well, if you just sit on your Chi the whole time, maybe. Again, Jabbing to heal is mana negative; it is on live, it will be moreso in 5.2. As long as you're still spending the Chi you get from ReM and Soothing in an efficient manner, you'll still get tons of Mana Tea stacks.

Its also not a huuuuuge amount of mana, its a specific amount of mana that we can make mathematical arguments about.

4 Chi = 1 Stack of Mana Tea
1 Stack of Mana Tea = 4% Mana.
4 Chi = 4% Mana
1 Chi = 1% Mana

That means on live, every time you Jab you lose 2.9% mana (3.9%-1%), and in 5.2 you'll lose 3.5% mana (4.5%-1%) every time you Jab. With the glyph you only lose that 6% mana you spent on the Uplift. On live, once you consider Mana Tea, Jab-Jab-Uplift is sliiiightly cheaper (5.8% is more efficient than 6%). In 5.2, the glyph wins out, but not by much (6% is more efficient than 7%). It also wins out in reliability; you never have to worry about not having enough Chi to Uplift again.

We can make mathematical arguments here, and yours is currently flawed.

Disregarding the chance to proc two charges of Mana Tea (thus 8% return after your second Uplift, making each Jab worth 2% rather than 1%), you still aren't gaining any charges off of the glyphed Uplift; the mana consumed there is gone in it's entirety, until you generate and spend enough Chi, spending more mana yet on SooM, SuM, ReM etc., to get more Tea.

See where I'm coming from?

[Felade]

Disregarding the chance to proc two charges of Mana Tea (thus 8% return after your second Uplift, making each Jab worth 2% rather than 1%),

Jab costs 3.9% on live, not 3%, and you gain 1% from the Mana Tea that you got by spending the Chi you made Jabbing, thus the real cost of Jab on live is 2.9%, not 2%.

you still aren't gaining any charges off of the glyphed Uplift;

Of course you aren't, but the thing you aren't realizing is that even when you consider that mana, you actually spent more mana Jabbing for Chi than you would have spent on glyphed Uplift.

Without the glyph:

You spent 3.9%x2 mana for 2 Chi.
You Uplift. This Uplift actually cost you 7.8% mana.
You gained 2% mana from Mana Tea (eventually since it only gives a stack once you spend 4 Chi).
Thus, once you include your Mana Tea rebate, you actually spent 5.8% mana to Uplift without the glyph.

IN 5.2 that becomes 4.5%x2, for a raw cost of 9%. After Mana Tea, you end up spending 7%.

And 7% is more than 6%.

The Mana Tea you gained simply does not give back as much mana as you spent gaining the Chi. Yes, its gone in its entirety, but you still spent less mana overall by not Jabbing in the first place (in 5.2).

[Totaltotemic]

Jab costs 3.9% on live, not 3%, and you gain 1% from the Mana Tea that you got by spending the Chi you made Jabbing, thus the real cost of Jab on live is 2.9%, not 2%.




Of course you aren't, but the thing you aren't realizing is that even when you consider that mana, you actually spent more mana Jabbing for Chi than you would have spent on glyphed Uplift.

Without the glyph:

You spent 3.9%x2 mana for 2 Chi.
You Uplift. This Uplift actually cost you 7.8% mana.
You gained 2% mana from Mana Tea (eventually since it only gives a stack once you spend 4 Chi).
Thus, once you include your Mana Tea rebate, you actually spent 5.8% mana to Uplift without the glyph.

IN 5.2 that becomes 4.5%x2, for a raw cost of 9%. After Mana Tea, you end up spending 7%.

And 7% is more than 6%.

The Mana Tea you gained simply does not give back as much mana as you spent gaining the Chi. Yes, its gone in its entirety, but you still spent less mana overall by not Jabbing in the first place (in 5.2).

Oh dear, you're making me mathy... you won't like me when I'm mathy....


Jab costs 3% mana on live. Yes, technically it's 3.9% mana, but if you're still using the glyph to make it cost that much mana at this point and not abusing the bugged hotfix, then you're pretty ignorant at this point.

However, 5.1 values really don't matter at this point since we're talking about 5.2, so I'll let that one go. Where your extremely egregious mistakes in your math lie are in not counting Mana Tea crit procs and the fact that none of the level 30 talents benefit Uplift. For the sake of simplicity, let's go with Ascendance because it's the easiest to calculate and we'll be using it a lot more in 5.2 anyways to abuse the Tiger Palm return. I don't particularly like the wording of your explanation, but I'm going to straight copy it just to point out where the math went wrong.

Without the glyph:

You spent 4.5%x2 mana for 2 Chi.
You Uplift. This Uplift actually cost you 9% mana.
You gained 2.875%(2% x 115% x 125% for Ascendance and Crit respectively = 2.875%) mana from Mana Tea (eventually since it only gives a stack once you spend 4 Chi).
Thus, once you include your Mana Tea rebate, you actually spent 6.125% mana to Uplift without the glyph.


And 6.125% is less than 6.6% (real cost of glyph, damn you tooltips). BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!

Mana cost of glyph of Uplift +21%

Not on the current PTR built yet, but supposedly on their internal build.
6.6% x 121% = 7.986%

Therefore

6.125% is less than 7.986%, almost exactly the opposite of what you found.

Stay smart, kids, be thorough, be detailed. Don't skip steps just because it's easier.

Edit: Because Zonde caught me with my foot in my mouth, I had to change a couple of values here and there. The end result is that, in 5.2, with Ascendance and a 25% Crit chance (likely to actually be upwards of 30-35% in 5.2, but I digress), Jab/Jab/Uplift will, on average, cost 1.861% of base mana less than its Glyphed counterpart, or 5,583 mana.

[Felade]

Jab costs 3% mana on live. Yes, technically it's 3.9% mana, but if you're still using the glyph to make it cost that much mana at this point and not abusing the bugged hotfix, then you're pretty ignorant at this point.

Yes, I'm aware of the bug. I thought we'd do the math that's intended, not the bugged math. Also, 3.9% is what's stated in the guide.

Thus, once you include your Mana Tea rebate, you actually spent 6.125% mana to Uplift without the glyph.

Sorry about the crit, I was just doing quick napkin math. Looks like it still stands (if barely).

Mana cost of glyph of Uplift +21%

I missed this, since I've only been paying attention to the actual PTR notes.

and the fact that none of the level 30 talents benefit Uplift.

This isn't really relevant to our discussion and makes no sense. On live, the level 30 talents are competing with Uplift for your Chi, and in 5.2 they are only competing for a GCD every so often.

Stay smart, kids, be thorough, be detailed. Don't skip steps just because it's easier.

So really, all I missed was the change to the glyph cost. The crit issue is important but wouldn't have changed the conclusion on its own. If your math is sound, the attitude is unnecessary.

[Luqt]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but a glyphed uplift on live currently costs 6.6% of base mana or 19,800. A 21% increase will make uplift cost 8% of base mana (not sure if they round to 3 significant figures but it wouldn't make sense for a glyphed uplift to cost 23,958 mana lol) or 24,000 mana.

"Be thorough" ;P

[Totaltotemic]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but a glyphed uplift on live currently costs 6.6% of base mana or 19,800. A 21% increase will make uplift cost 8% of base mana (not sure if they round to 3 significant figures but it wouldn't make sense for a glyphed uplift to cost 23,958 mana lol) or 24,000 mana.

"Be thorough" ;P

To be fair, I've only used that glyph once and both its tooltip on live, wowhead, and wowdb all say 6% The only way to get the real value is to actually log into the game, put on the glyph, and look at the mana cost. I'd hardly call that as bad as ignoring core class mechanics like stat interactions and an entire row of talents. Then again, I should know by now to not accept tooltips at their face value. Will edit previous post to reflect that.

Of course, I did also completely gloss over the fact that if you glyph Uplift in 5.2, the options to spend Chi to actually heal are extremely small and it would essentially make Power Strikes and Chi Brew worthless.

[Felade]

To be fair, I've only used that glyph once and both its tooltip on live, wowhead, and wowdb all say 6% The only way to get the real value is to actually log into the game, put on the glyph, and look at the mana cost. I'd hardly call that as bad as ignoring core class mechanics like stat interactions and an entire row of talents. Then again, I should know by now to not accept tooltips at their face value.

Are we really going to argue about who was more wrong?

The issue is that a lot of people like to heal through Jab-Jab-Uplift. Blizzard is making that a bit harder. Instead of QQing, I'd like to look critically at a lot of different options and see if they make sense. The point I was trying to make was that if you want to spam Uplift you could just glyph it, but it looks like that's not going to work out unless you really want to spend EVERY GCD Uplifting in a high-damage circumstance.