Who's more "evil" as of now: Orcs or the Forsaken?

[Thage]

Your first example with "Every priest, Shaman, paladin and druid does it" is faulty and not compliant in actual Lore. If "ressurection" existed in lore, anyone and everyone could be rezzed. Terenas? Nope, rezzed. Uther? Lolrezzed.

Aegwynn and Medivh's situation were a special case, what with her being the Matriarch of Tirisfal and Medivh being the Guardian. Both are exceptional characters in lore and are special cases.

For the common folk of Azeroth and even its 'heroes' that are mortals, ressurection does not exist. My point still stands.

Anduin rezzed Varian in Varian's short story, but it's generally implied/understood that barring necromancy, genuine resurrection a) requires extremely powerful individuals casting the resurrection magic, b) is extremely taxing on the caster, c) doesn't always work, and d) has an extremely short window where it can be done.

[Florena]

The most bizaare exmaple has to be the argent paladin that a death knight in ice crown reses by having you gather his body parts back together. I'm guessing that sort of slipped under the radar in development.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 11:41 PM ----------

Forsaken didn't declare war on Gilneas. Rogue Forsaken bombed Wrathgate.

You're right about the wrathgate. You may be technically right that the Forsaken didn't declare war. They just showed up and started waging it without a word. It was ordered by Garrosh, but still carried out by mostly forsaken.

[Aquamonkey]

When you attack a non-aggressive neutral party without provocation, that is a declaration of war. (Well, unless the people you attack are non-military, in which case it's just mass murder.)

You're right about the wrathgate. You may be technically right that the Forsaken didn't declare war. They just showed up and started waging it without a word. It was ordered by Garrosh, but still carried out by mostly forsaken.

Sylvanas is off at ICC when Garrosh conscripted the Forsaken into his Horde army for an attack on Gilneas. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...s-windrunner/1

A handy excuse, shame it was the majority of Forsaken who agreed with it (supporting evidence: they took Undercity and the Sylvanas faction could only take it back with the help of the rest of the Horde and Jaina).
But none of that changes the truth of what I said, they started the war with their actions at the Wrathgate.

Yes, Varimathras and the Royal Apothecary Society constitute a majority... She needed help because the entire city was flooded with Plague and full of demons.

[Haven]

I wonder how many times elementary things have to be said until some people comprehend them.

- Waging war on Gilneas was Garrosh's order and initiative. The Forsaken were meant to be used as a meat shield for orcish army.

- Wrathgate incident was perpetrated by traitors to the Forsaken, Varimathras and Putress.

- The war between Horde and Alliance in Hillsbrad has been going on for several years before Southshore was finally destroyed. It's not some unexpected "traitorous" attack "without provocation".

[Aquamonkey]

The naazis performed a lot of experiments (especially with twins), with the intent of creating perfect soldiers. The russians, or one specifically, tried making a human ape hybrid they can have the most physically strong soldiers. I'm sure both thought the horrors they created out were for progressive science.

What made them evil was not their scientific inquiry. It was their complete disregard for the well-being of the subjects and falls into the realm of medical torture. They performed invasive surgery without anesthesia. They left people mutilated. They left people untreated while they died slowly and painfully after they were no longer needed. None of these actions were done for scientific reasons.

[Khaza-R]

- Waging war on Gilneas was Garrosh's order and initiative. The Forsaken were meant to be used as a meat shield for orcish army.

Indeed. But but the only reason she had any objections about Gilneas was because she was getting stomped by the Worgen surprise. You never see her have any qualms about invading Hillsbrad, WPL, or creeping into Arathi.

[Mister J]

"The war between Horde and Alliance in Hillsbrad has been going on for several years before Southshore was finally destroyed. It's not some unexpected "traitorous" attack "without provocation". "

You're confusing the traditional PvP zone of 'Southshore vs Terran Mill' as a flat out 'war'. Southshore was a primarily civilian based village, with the majority of its defenders as the local militia, who also guarded the nearby Farmlands. The largest military force near Southshore would be the Stormpike and they're busy fighting the Frostwolves.

Terran Mill was never a military outpost, nor was Southshore. Southshore was one of the few last standing Lordaeron villages that didn't fall to the plague.

The Forsaken marching in with plague wagons and blight bombs was absolutely unexpected. They had no way to defend themselves, nor was there night and day battles between the two villages. It was abrupt and sudden and those who survived barely did so as they most likely ran for their lives the second the Forsaken War machine appeared at the border of Silverpine.

[Aquamonkey]

"The war between Horde and Alliance in Hillsbrad has been going on for several years before Southshore was finally destroyed. It's not some unexpected "traitorous" attack "without provocation". "

You're confusing the traditional PvP zone of 'Southshore vs Terran Mill' as a flat out 'war'. Southshore was a primarily civilian based village, with the majority of its defenders as the local militia, who also guarded the nearby Farmlands. The largest military force near Southshore would be the Stormpike and they're busy fighting the Frostwolves.

Terran Mill was never a military outpost, nor was Southshore. Southshore was one of the few last standing Lordaeron villages that didn't fall to the plague.

The Forsaken marching in with plague wagons and blight bombs was absolutely unexpected. They had no way to defend themselves, nor was there night and day battles between the two villages. It was abrupt and sudden and those who survived barely did so as they most likely ran for their lives the second the Forsaken War machine appeared at the border of Silverpine.

She was given a vision of the future: Due to Garrosh's reckless use of the Forsaken at Gilneas, their forces are too weak to fend off an Alliance invasion. The Alliance marches unto Undercity and exterminates them.

In order to prevent this, she takes over the assault on Gilneas to reduce Forsaken casualties. All her actions in the territory surrounding UC are to hold off invasion by fortify her defensive position.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 12:10 AM ----------

Indeed. But but the only reason she had any objections about Gilneas was because she was getting stomped by the Worgen surprise. You never see her have any qualms about invading Hillsbrad, WPL, or creeping into Arathi.

Her objections at Gilneas were due to the vision she was given of the future extermination of the Forsaken by an Alliance invasion.

[Deleted]

Claiming responsibility doesn't make them guilty. There is legal precedent, IRL, for this kind of thing. The intoxicated party is not guilty in cases of involuntary intoxication.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 07:21 AM ----------


It is when your trusted leader lies and tells you it makes you harder, better, faster, stronger.


"Gul'dan swallowed hard. He did not dare glance at Ner'zhul, whose gaze he felt boring into his back.
Yes, he knew well what Kil’jaeden was offering. Power beyond imagining . . . and slavery for eternity. Kil’jaeden had offered the former to Ner'zhul in exchange for the latter, and Ner'zhul, the coward, had balked. He had not wanted to doom his people. Gul'dan was untroubled by such scruples." (Rise of the Horde). Primary source trumps WoWpedia.

Slavery in a sense, certainly. But that doesn't contradict anything I've said. Of course they are in a sense slaves to Mannoroth, as they are bound to him by drinking his blood, but that still doesn't change that all of them were still able to perform free will. Nowhere does it tell of how the Legion literally forces the orcs to do anything. They didn't stand behind them with the gun, threatening to shoot them all of they didn't obey. They were barely present at all. Especially during Tides of War and Beyond the Dark Portal.

[Haven]

Indeed. But but the only reason she had any objections about Gilneas was because she was getting stomped by the Worgen surprise. You never see her have any qualms about invading Hillsbrad, WPL, or creeping into Arathi.

Was she supposed to be outraged?

[Larwood]

Sylvanas is off at ICC when Garrosh conscripted the Forsaken into his Horde army for an attack on Gilneas. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...s-windrunner/1

So you're saying because Sylvanas wasn't there to stop it, it's OK? You're painting a picture of a murderous leader who has absolutely no loyalty from her people. Not sure how that helps the argument that they are less evil than the orcs.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 05:04 PM ----------

I love people who use the 'val'kyr vision' as a defence. It makes no sense, get given vision by malevolent beings -> take it at face value. They only gave her the vision so they could escape ICC now that the new Lich King is a 'good guy'.

Who's to say the vision is real?
Who's to say the vision isn't self-fulfilling? (ie. her actions to avoid what she saw are what cause it to happen)
Not really sure how being lead by a pawn of beings created by the Lich King makes the Forsaken any less evil.

[Aquamonkey]

So you're saying because Sylvanas wasn't there to stop it, it's OK? You're painting a picture of a murderous leader who has absolutely no loyalty from her people. Not sure how that helps the argument that they are less evil than the orcs.

So you're blaming her for something that happened while she was dead? Maybe you should read the story, she has the complete loyalty of her people.

Her murderous intent is directed only at Arthas. Everything else is collateral damage. Or self preservation. She's a psychopath, but she doesn't kill people for fun.

I love people who use the 'val'kyr vision' as a defence. It makes no sense, get given vision by malevolent beings -> take it at face value. They only gave her the vision so they could escape ICC now that the new Lich King is a 'good guy'.

Who's to say the vision is real?
Who's to say the vision isn't self-fulfilling? (ie. her actions to avoid what she saw are what cause it to happen)
Not really sure how being lead by a pawn of beings created by the Lich King makes the Forsaken any less evil.

Because being a slave isn't reason enough to want freedom? Bolvar is far from being a 'good guy'. He's so good he just goes along with some bullshit about there always having to be a Lich King. He has complete dominance over the Scourge, why doesn't he make them to destroy themselves? Why doesn't he release their souls so they can find peace? Real stand-up guy, that Bolvar, keeping the Scourge in slavery and torment.

The vision is real because it includes events that are happening concurrently on a different continent.
The vision isn't self-fulfilling because she was dead in the future of the vision. Her choosing to resurrect changes the entire outcome.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 01:47 AM ----------

Slavery in a sense, certainly. But that doesn't contradict anything I've said. Of course they are in a sense slaves to Mannoroth, as they are bound to him by drinking his blood, but that still doesn't change that all of them were still able to perform free will. Nowhere does it tell of how the Legion literally forces the orcs to do anything. They didn't stand behind them with the gun, threatening to shoot them all of they didn't obey. They were barely present at all. Especially during Tides of War and Beyond the Dark Portal.

They were drugged without their knowledge. Their judgement was compromised by the Blood Curse making them more pliable. Our legal system has specific provisions to protect people in these cases of involuntary intoxication.

In the case of Durotan and the Frostwolves (the only uncorrupted clan), they were held at gunpoint. If they didn't join the Horde in going through the portal, Gul'dan was going to slaughter the entire clan. And when they were exiled upon landing in Azeroth, the Frostwolves went of to live in peace. Durotan even came back to overthrow Gul'dan.

[Larwood]

So you're blaming her for something that happened while she was dead?

No, I'm blaming the rest of the Forsaken. "We wouldn't have gone and killed all those people if Sylvanas was here!" does not make them good, it makes them bad.

Because being a slave isn't reason enough to want freedom?

Completely irrelevant to this discussion. They would do anything to escape, the reason they want to escape doesn't make them any less likely to lie to and manipulate Sylvanas.

The vision is real because it includes events that are happening concurrently on a different continent.

So the Val'kyr have the ability to show people visions of the future but they don't have the ability to include events happening in the current time? Makes sense!

The vision isn't self-fulfilling because she was dead in the future of the vision. Her choosing to resurrect changes the entire outcome.

They needed her alive to escape. Do you understand this? They need her alive, so they show her terrible things that happen supposedly as a result of her not being alive! Wow it's ingenious!

[Spichora]

Your first example with "Every priest, Shaman, paladin and druid does it" is faulty and not compliant in actual Lore. If "ressurection" existed in lore, anyone and everyone could be rezzed. Terenas? Nope, rezzed. Uther? Lolrezzed.

Aegwynn and Medivh's situation were a special case, what with her being the Matriarch of Tirisfal and Medivh being the Guardian. Both are exceptional characters in lore and are special cases.

For the common folk of Azeroth and even its 'heroes' that are mortals, ressurection does not exist. My point still stands.

I cant agree with u in that. Velen resurrected Human fallen refuges and some draeneis when they had clash in the Leader Short Stories novel. I belive that there is such spell like resurrection or bringing back to life but only most powerful being r capable of it and in great costs for caster or for dead one ! It is known that arthas brought Sylvanas back as banshee it is sort of resurrection ! and the Lich king itself did that to every dead people in northrend to build an army of brain-washed death knights. Cenarius was resurrected in Cataclysm.

I think that all above means that Resurrection is quite possible

[babo7000]

I cant agree with u in that. Velen resurrected Human fallen refuges and some draeneis when they had clash in the Leader Short Stories novel. I belive that there is such spell like resurrection or bringing back to life but only most powerful being r capable of it and in great costs for caster or for dead one ! It is known that arthas brought Sylvanas back as banshee it is sort of resurrection ! and the Lich king itself did that to every dead people in northrend to build an army of brain-washed death knights. Cenarius was resurrected in Cataclysm.

I think that all above means that Resurrection is quite possible

In WoW, ressurection has a lot of things affecting it; The type of magic used, the power of the ressurector/ressurectee, and the situation it occurs in.

Someone like Cenarius moreso regenerated. Ancients never really die, just get their spirits sent to the dream. Velen's story deals with random draenei/humans, as well as the most powerful priest in lore, so it shouldnt be too hard.

It is necromancy that gets the bad end of the stick, as that is used simply as a way of having a mindless zombie slave.

Anyways, despite its numerous appearances, ressurection in lore is rare, and usually deals with some of the more powerful lore characters performing said ressurection.

[Deleted]

They were drugged without their knowledge. Their judgement was compromised by the Blood Curse making them more pliable. Our legal system has specific provisions to protect people in these cases of involuntary intoxication.

In the case of Durotan and the Frostwolves (the only uncorrupted clan), they were held at gunpoint. If they didn't join the Horde in going through the portal, Gul'dan was going to slaughter the entire clan. And when they were exiled upon landing in Azeroth, the Frostwolves went of to live in peace. Durotan even came back to overthrow Gul'dan.

"Involuntary Intoxication" doesn't mean they were slaves. All of the things you talk about were things that went down between different orcs/orc clans. That doesn't mean they were slaves to the Legion. If anything they were slaves to their warchief, who was manipulated by the Shadow Council.

[Polarthief]

---it seems lately the Orcs in the Horde are doing ten times the worse than the Forsaken ever did.

Discuss.

No they're not. It's Garrosh.

The Orcs wouldn't do anything if it wasn't for that fuckwad.

[Bryntrollian]

Garrosh is evil incarnate

[Spichora]

No they're not. It's Garrosh.

The Orcs wouldn't do anything if it wasn't for that fuckwad.

Well garrosh is representative of orcs! now orcs seem more aggressive then ever , they seem .... more free, showing theur true nature ! Thrall was capable to hide their rage, which made him great leader

As well sylvanas is representative of Forsaken and she hasnt done anything like that ! garrosh is a monster !!!

[babo7000]

"Involuntary Intoxication" doesn't mean they were slaves. All of the things you talk about were things that went down between different orcs/orc clans. That doesn't mean they were slaves to the Legion. If anything they were slaves to their warchief, who was manipulated by the Shadow Council.

Its hard to call people slaves when they willingly follow and vote im a leader that is obviously batshit insane.

Like I said, the demon blood cursed the orcs and robbed them of free will. However, it was there own decision to follow Gul'Dan planned attack on the Draenei (with no proof of them ever plotting against the orcs), and to drink the blood because it was going to make them all the more powerful.