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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    What's the serious difference between Starsurge Procs and Lava Burst Procs?
    Lava burst procs a lot more often and always crits, it also looks cooler.

    I'd also like to add that ele's spells can duplicate when hitting something, which is cool too and something the other casters don't have.

    Really in terms of mechanics ele is fine, it just needs a new spell or two to be added to the rotation.

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pietrzyk View Post
    Bigger numbers for Balance Druid. (As far as I know, Starsurge non-crit is stronger then Lava Burst)
    It is stronger.

    But I think Kralljin was just trying to point out the flaw in the other poster's logic. The other poster was writing that lava surge procs make elemental more exciting than Moonkins, but Balance has the same mechanic with their passive Shooting Stars.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Courierrawr View Post
    Lava burst procs a lot more often
    Well, this Log tells a different Story:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...11911#Krollgar

    Shooting Stars -> 36 Procs
    Lava Surge -> 24 Procs

    Secondly, Shooting Stars % scales with gear and is really insane on multidotting.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Secondly, Shooting Stars % scales with gear and is really insane on multidotting.
    True. But so does Lava Surge.

  5. #45
    How about making Lightning Bolt always crit at =< 20%
    If that is too high then maybe Flame Shock, Earth Shock and Fulmination would always crit.

    Or a change to Elemental Focus.. instead of 10% increase in damage make it 30% or so, or make the next two LB's crit or have the next two spells Crits..
    Maybe just increase the crit chance by 30~50%

    Or add a new passive like Elemental Focus that would cause the next two spells to crit but not renew the buff.

    That might have us change the rotation a bit and prioritize Elemental Blast above LvB.

    Or maybe even something like Lava Surge but for Elemental Blast.

    Or even make Elemental Blast always critting at 20% and lower the cooldown by 30~50%

    Just give us something to make it more interesting..

  6. #46
    Stood in the Fire TheFNK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaintOnASign View Post
    True. But so does Lava Surge.
    Yes but multi-dotting as Elemental is a little tougher seeing as our dot has a CD

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNK View Post
    Yes but multi-dotting as Elemental is a little tougher seeing as our dot has a CD
    Yeah. I was just pointing out that Lava Surge benefits from multi-DoT'ing and gear too, I didn't really see the point in mentioning it for Boomkins.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by PaintOnASign View Post
    Yeah. I was just pointing out that Lava Surge benefits from multi-DoT'ing and gear too, I didn't really see the point in mentioning it for Boomkins.
    unless the mobs are going to take a while to die.. multidotting is a dps loss.
    am guessing around two Lava Surge procs need to pop before it becomes beneficial.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Samiizz View Post
    unless the mobs are going to take a while to die.. multidotting is a dps loss.
    ...
    Tell me a class which this is not the case.
    DoT as in Damage over time is meant for target that live a while.

  10. #50
    The DoT in itself isnt the main purpose of multidotting as elemental..
    its the procs of Lava Surge.

    The full damage of Flame Shock is at best equal to LB.. but having to select another target that has enough health to last long enough for two procs is a bargain in itself.

  11. #51
    Dreadlord Eruionmel's Avatar
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    No. Bad shaman. NEVER multidot. Not even when the second mob is going to last long enough. Having to use that many GCDs and shock CDs to refresh flame shock even twice is still a DPS loss due to having to cut out fulminations. Especially if you have the 4pc.

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  12. #52
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why so many of you want rotational changes to ele. It's already one of the most fun caster specs to play, and easily beats mages in how engaging it is.

    A lot of you are also saying that ele lacks the kind of toolkit that other casters have, to be both good in pvp and pve.

    For pve, ele has an incredibly strong toolkit, which is only being buffed in 5.2. You have good burst, good utility, good mobility, and in 5.2 you will have an out of this world cleave. Sure you can't multi dot, but it's not a necessity, especially with the kind of cleave you're getting. Single target damage is behind though, and the only way to buff it without breaking other aspects of the game is to buff lightning bolt/searing totem/flame shock. It won't take much buffing, with a 5%-10% buff to those three spells making ele more than competitive in pve.

    Let's get into pvp though, where blizz designed themselves into a corner. In pvp, both sustained and burst damage matter, although burst is often times the more important factor. One needs to keep in mind though, that there is a huge difference between controlled burst and random burst.

    Controlled burst is using your CDs or using a big hitting spell at the right time. This is the kind of burst that tends to win games, as you can coordinate it with your teammates. CDs are obviously the #1 way of coordinating it, but often times you get a kill just by bursting at the right time without CDs up. Mages can utilize deep, locks can instant swap dots and haunt, priests can mind spike + mind blast, etc. Ele has the CDs, but even with them up, it's hit or miss.

    The reason for this is how completely unpredictable ele damage is. Most classes have crit and maybe some procs in terms of rng. Ele has crit, lava surge, fulmination, mastery and eote procs. Depending on how lucky you get, you can either one shot someone with a 4 instant lava bursts and 2 instant fulmination crits OR 4 lightning bolt crits in a row, or you can barely tickle them if you don't get a single crit/overload/eote proc.

    Ele has perhaps the highest burst in game if they get lucky, or the lowest if they don't. Now consider the pvp implications of this. It's very hard to set up kills with an ele since ever proc in the book has to happen, but if it goes right you're almost guaranteed a kill. (Btw yes I've been globalled by a shaman this season, he got 4 lightning bolt crits followed by 4 instant lava burst crits, only casting two spells.)

    The developers need to now be extremely careful, because any kind of significant buffs can turn ele into a nearly uncounterable killing machine. Imo it's their fault for making the gap between getting lucky and getting unlucky way too large, but it's still something that needs to be considered.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by PaintOnASign View Post
    Yeah. I was just pointing out that Lava Surge benefits from multi-DoT'ing and gear too, I didn't really see the point in mentioning it for Boomkins.
    Lava Surge is vastly inferior in terms of scaling / multi dotting, because:
    Aside from additional ticks you can't increase your Proc Chance, unlike Balance Druids.
    Multi Dotting is hardly worth as Elemental and messes up your single target rotation, unlike Balance Druids.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funky View Post
    • [B]Currently we have a lightning bolt, a lava burst, and an elemental blast, How about a water/frost spell? or maybe a wind lash.
      Nothing too overpowered just something to buff our dps and make elemental less of a 4 button spec.
    • Searing totem/Fire elemental dmg could renew Flame shock ticks = more fulmination
    Some good ideas in there that I like, but these two didn't really seem to go together all that well. You want more buttons to press but you want to press Flame Shock less?

  15. #55
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why y'all are so intent on discussing starsurge vs lava burst. While similar, the two spells are taken from two different toolkits and serve different purposes.

    Lava burst is guaranteed to crit, plus it can proc from overload and eote if you spec it. In full BiS gear, lava burst will crit for around 160k, which can trigger overload for around 120k, eoe for 160k and eoe overload for 120k. Total damage: 560k in one global. Overload procs almost 50% of the time, with eoe not really proccing all that much. So on average, your lava burst will do 220k damage, roughly 45% of the time doing 160k and 45% of the time doing 280k. Oh you also get around 85 lava bursts off during a roughly 7.5 min fight.

    Starsurge on the other hand crits for around 310k, hits for 145k and crits 25% of the time (all assuming bis gear here). On average, it will do 165k. Roughly 75% of the time it will do around 145k and 25% of the time it will do around 310k. During a 7.5 min fight you get around 50 of these off.
    Why did I just do this whole numbers thing? Mainly cause I'm sick of seeing people bitch about starsurge being op and lava burst sucking. They are different spells, they serve different purposes, but numerically speaking, lava burst is superior for single target. Don't even mention about twice as reliable. (10 man elegon, boomkins causing a wipe cause starsurge didn't crit and the spark got through).

    Also don't forget that ele has fulmination and elemental blast, both of which hit for quite a bit.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post

    Lava burst is guaranteed to crit, plus it can proc from overload and eote if you spec it. In full BiS gear, lava burst will crit for around 160k, which can trigger overload for around 120k, eoe for 160k and eoe overload for 120k. Total damage: 560k in one global. Overload procs almost 50% of the time, with eoe not really proccing all that much. So on average, your lava burst will do 220k damage, roughly 45% of the time doing 160k and 45% of the time doing 280k. Oh you also get around 85 lava bursts off during a roughly 7.5 min fight.

    Starsurge on the other hand crits for around 310k, hits for 145k and crits 25% of the time (all assuming bis gear here). On average, it will do 165k. Roughly 75% of the time it will do around 145k and 25% of the time it will do around 310k. During a 7.5 min fight you get around 50 of these off.
    Why did I just do this whole numbers thing? Mainly cause I'm sick of seeing people bitch about starsurge being op and lava burst sucking. They are different spells, they serve different purposes, but numerically speaking, lava burst is superior for single target. Don't even mention about twice as reliable. (10 man elegon, boomkins causing a wipe cause starsurge didn't crit and the spark got through).
    Thanks for your thoughts but i was never talking about Lvb vs Starsurge, i was talking about Lava Surge vs Shooting Stars which have very similiar mechanics.

  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire shell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    Why did I just do this whole numbers thing? Mainly cause I'm sick of seeing people bitch about starsurge being op and lava burst sucking.
    I'm not sure, but for the most part I think the whole 'starsurge is super awesome, lava burst sucks' thing comes from pvp. Factoring the 100% crit for LvB, the two spells base damage is pretty close with LvB slightly ahead. But the mentality comes from one critting for 160k and the other critting for 310k, I'm just using pve numbers I realize neither hits for that much in pvp. People remember a time when we used LvB and it would take a big chunk out of someone's health, similar to what starsurge is capable of now, so we compare the two. I realize we didn't have mastery, fulmination, or the same talents so basically it comes down to nostalgia but for pvp I'd take starsurge and its mechanics over lava burst. It just feels stronger to me even if the numbers say otherwise...but that may have more to do with flame shock than anything.
    These words in my mouth... where did they come from? I don't think I'm the one that put them there...

  18. #58
    Deleted
    Quick idea springs to mind.
    Redesign Lava Surge.

    Lava Surge:
    When your period Flame Shock ticks CRIT you have a 100% chance to reset the cooldown on Lava Burst and make it an instant cast.

    There we go. Crit and haste scaling for Lava Surge, and it also makes crit slightly better for Elemental.. Win/win. Then they just got to tune how often Flame Shock ticks to make sure we arent gimped by our insanely low crit chance atm (Im rocking ~11% selfbuffed in ilvl 496 atm).

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenvon View Post
    Quick idea springs to mind.
    Redesign Lava Surge.

    Lava Surge:
    When your period Flame Shock ticks CRIT you have a 100% chance to reset the cooldown on Lava Burst and make it an instant cast.

    There we go. Crit and haste scaling for Lava Surge, and it also makes crit slightly better for Elemental.. Win/win. Then they just got to tune how often Flame Shock ticks to make sure we arent gimped by our insanely low crit chance atm (Im rocking ~11% selfbuffed in ilvl 496 atm).
    I agree with this, and additionally, Lava Burst damage should scale with crit rating as well, just like Chaos Bolt.

  20. #60
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
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    @shell. The problem is though that lava burst does more damage more reliably. It crits 100% of the time if flameshock is up and you can essentially count overload as a crit, only it procs almost 45% of the time and does slightly less damage. Starsurge is a lot less reliable, critting for under 20% of the time in pvp.

    The issue that comes up in pvp is that multi dotting lets boomkins get off far more starsurges cause of shooting stars.

    To be fair though, you can't really compare shooting stars to lava surge. The two classes have incredibly different playstyles and toolkits, which makes such a comparison rather pointless.

    In pvp, boomkins 100% for sure need shooting stars in order to get any casts off. Starfire is a 2.7 sec cast and wrath doesn't hit for shit.

    But hey, ele will be amazing in rbgs next patch and pretty strong in arena.

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